The Eye: what was it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

What if what we are seeing whne we see the red beam is Sauron's eye being transmitted through the Palantir like a light being focused through a lens; a visible path of his vision. Granted we hear no mention of such a phyical trace being seen with any of the other "scryings" with a Palatir, but I'm willing to be that Sauron is the first being using one who has actual physical light coming out of his eyes (yes, Elvish eyes "shine" but that's not the same as having actual physical light coming out) at least that's how I see it.

I thought of that, but then, why does the path of the Eye not always show red? When Frodo sat on Amon Hen and perceived it searching for him, he saw it as a 'black shadow'. All I could think of was Frodo and Sam's nearness to Sauron, or, maybe being tinted by volcanic smoke or fumes around Barad-dûr, made it appear red.

[Mnemosyne]

Hmm...

I know that in this chapter especially Sam's point of view dominates, but Frodo was still the character who supposedly recorded all of this. Might his perception of the Eye be some side effect of his Ring-enhanced perception, much like the wheel of fire which apparently manifested itself on a physical level to him?

At any rate this eye-like imagery still comes from a window in the top of the tower and is very faint, not this dumb lighthouse-style searchlight thing that looks like nothing so much as a mussel prized from its shell and stuck between the outer tines of a fork...

What does weird me out with all the canon descriptions of the Eye is how very catlike it is, when the last time Sauron was described in catlike terms he was Tevildo!

[Loslote]

Sauron wasn't able to manifest in a form that was "pleasing" t o others. My question is, why was he able to manifest in "ugly" forms? The Ainur that entered the world, Valar and Maiar, could "clothe" themselves in whatever form they liked. I'm confused as to why Sauron was different.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Sauron wasn't able to manifest in a form that was "pleasing" t o others. My question is, why was he able to manifest in "ugly" forms? The Ainur that entered the world, Valar and Maiar, could "clothe" themselves in whatever form they liked. I'm confused as to why Sauron was different.

Originally Sauron could take on a fair form as the other Maia. He lost the ability after the destruction of his body during the fall of Númenor.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I thought of that, but then, why does the path of the Eye not always show red? When Frodo sat on Amon Hen and perceived it searching for him, he saw it as a 'black shadow'. All I could think of was Frodo and Sam's nearness to Sauron, or, maybe being tinted by volcanic smoke or fumes around Barad-dûr, made it appear red.

My best guess on that is as follows since the projection is of Sauron's eye in totum, it is broadcasting both light and shadow since Sauron has both emanating from his eyes. In Mordor, due to 1. The nearness and 2. The Volcanic fumes making the sky perpetually dark the light was visible. However when Frodo sat on Amon Hen, he was presumably doing so during the day and possibly a relitively sunny day at that. In daylight the light would be obscured and what you would see is just the shadow. Think of it like looking at the same campfire (out of your immediate line of site) from a distance during the day and the night. At night what's going to catch your eye most is the light from the fire, During the day it will be the plume of smoke.

[JeffF.]

in the Silmarillion chapter called Akallabeth, near the end, Tolkien wirtes that (in the fall of Numenor) " Sauron was robbed of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of men...he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible: and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure."

thie is reiterated again in the chapter Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, "he had wrought for himself a new shape: and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed forever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure."

[skip spence]

Thanks for the comments, I'll try to respond to some of them later on. For now I'd like to throw this passage into the mix. It is from the description of Minas Morgul, and seems somehow relevant:

Originally Posted by LotR; The Stairs Of Cirith Ungol

...the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way then another, a huge ghostly head leering into the night.

A revolving, peering turret is perhaps a common feature in Dark Towers?

[Boromir88]

A metaphor for the presense, control, and watchful will of Sauron...nothing more. No time to explain that quote you give.

However, I can point out the "Eye" is first a metaphor associated with Morgoth and then Tolkien uses it again for Sauron in LOTR.

[Morsul the Dark]

Duh, It's a tractor beam To pull the ring to Sauron

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

We actually get to "see" sauron's eye in the story I think; unless I've been wrong all these years, I've always beleived that the Eye Frodo saw in Galadriel's Mirror was Saurons actual factual physical eye that if one were to physically be in the room with Sauron and look at him in person he would have eyes as described, yellow, slit pupiled, wreathed in flame and ringed with darkness (as for the lidless thing, I dont know whether sauron actually had no eyelids of this was a metephor for the fact he never slept and therefore never closed them)

I dunno, don't you think it seems strange only to see one Eye, and not a pair, if it is indeed Sauron's actual eye?

Originally Posted by JeffF

thie is reiterated again in the chapter Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, "he had wrought for himself a new shape: and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed forever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure".

I believe that The Eye here is metaphorical, that it symbolises the will and intent of Sauron. Actually, representation perhaps is a more fitting word. It is actually clear that Sauron had a mannish physical shape during the War of the Ring. Gollum had apparently met him and noted that he only had four fingers on his black hand - Isildur cut one off remember. Just read an article here that also quotes a letter by JRRT, which confirms that the Dark Lord isn't a burning Eye, but quite literally a Dark Lord.

Originally Posted by JRRT

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

At any rate this eye-like imagery still comes from a window in the top of the tower and is very faint, not this dumb lighthouse-style searchlight thing that looks like nothing so much as a mussel prized from its shell and stuck between the outer tines of a fork...

To be fair, the quote says "as from some window" which is only to say that they imagined it came from one, but couldn't actually see it, and though the fiery beam is said to "flicker" this isn't the same as saying it's very faint, only that it's unsteady. I like your theory of the Ring-enhanced perception though, this could be an explanation to Frodo's vision.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

There is little doubt that the "eye" whether physical or not, had great signficance to Sauron, it is after all the symbol he chose for his emblem and what his Orcs (and presumably men) were marked with (as the WK's forces were marked with the White Moon and Saruman's Uruk-Hai used the White hand). Heck even the Flies in Mordor were marked with the red eye. That sound like something more than a mere "metaphorical construct to me"

It does to me too. I mean, from where does this symbol or representation originate? Sauron isn't a big Eye, but while few unlucky souls have seen Sauron in person, everyone in Mordor at least seems to be familiar with The Lidless Eye that never sleeps, ever watching over the lands. I actually don't discount the idea of an actual Eye on top of the Dark Tower.

Originally Posted by Boro

A metaphor for the presense, control, and watchful will of Sauron...nothing more. No time to explain that quote you give.

I'm eagerly awaiting your explanaition.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I dunno, don't you think it seems strange only to see one Eye, and not a pair, if it is indeed Sauron's actual eye?

I have in fact wondered the same thing, I just didn't mention it for fear of sounding foolish. The best answer I can come up with (both I admit rather shakey) are as follows (I am assuming for the moment that the Palatir was involved at Sauron's end with regards to the incident, i.e. that Sauron didn't interface with the mirror's "sight" directly 1. at the time Sauron was holding the Palantir up to his eye like a giant monocle (we know that the ideal scrying distance for a Palantir is about three feet away but maybe when your trying to send your will through the stone having it closer is adventageous. Ultimately only Saruman and Aragorn likely know, both having confronted Sauron face to face in the Palantir (I'm not sure about this, but I get the felling that While Sauron was able to know whne Denetroy was using the stone, and was able to twist what Denethor saw he never out and out showed up in the Anor stone in person to confront Denethor face to face.) and neither of them said.

Heck for all I know the eye is a physical or at least visual manefestation of Sauron's "third eye" (that is where psychic powers are supposed to be broadcast from, right?). If there is an eye on top of the tower I doubt it's flesh and blood or at least I doubt it's physically connected to Sauron's body (somehow the image of a dark lord with a long umbilicus running from his head up trough the celing and connecting to a giant flesh and blood eye on the roof doesn't sit well with me.).

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm eagerly awaiting your explanaition.

Such a patient person, it's usually a quality I lack. Anyway, to my explanation.

In the Third Age there is an 'Eye of Sauron' (sometimes just short-handed by Tolkien as 'the Eye') as there was an 'Eye of Morgoth.' In both cases (in my opinion I should also stress) it's a metaphor to both Dark Lords' dominant, over-powering wills.

Frodo see the Eye in Galadriel's Mirror as Galadriel goes to point out:

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."~Mirror of Galadriel

And in the Silm:

"He took up the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron and few even the great Elves and Men could endure"~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Now with the quote from Mount Doom, I would call it a delusional vision of Frodo's:

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck.

"but as from some great window...the flicker of a piercing Eye." >>>the start of the metaphor (or simile if you would prefer).

Frodo's vision is over, but Tolkien continues with "the Eye" to describe Sauron (something that he also used for Morgoth). He also uses another metaphor for Sauron as "that Power" something Saruman does too:

A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power.~The Council of Elrond

Note with both "the Eye" and "that Power", the consistent capitalization of the words, which would denote that they are both referring to person, almost like a personal title. When Saruman says "that Power," Gandalf and everyone knows he's talking about Sauron. It's no different with the Mount Doom quote, where the Eye is a vision of Frodo's, and Tolkien then used the Eye and the Power as metaphors to refer to Sauron's will (or his "malice") which was now entirely bent towards the Captains of the West.

I got another Sauron metaphor for you

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wonder witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless, and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.~Field of Cormallen

Here Tolkien is describing Sauron's servants as ants with Sauron as their Queen, and when their queen was destroyed, they were crazed and mindless. Thos not held under the Eye...erm Iron Will of Sauron (like the Men of Rhun and Harad) they had a much different (and far more noble) reaction.

"It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom, for in their corruption they had almost lost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did the pressure on them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his "Eye" wherever they might be....this servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs to an almost ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth’s chief Lieutenant."~Home X: Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed

I'm pretty sure there are several places in the Silm too where Morgoth is referred to as "the Eye," but right now time is short and I'm too lazy to flip through the pages. But I will end with...what was Sauron's symbol? A red Eye. Seeing as Sauron loved order, co-ordination (to the point of being a control freak) he seemed to also push the Eye as a metaphor for himself. So many metaphors, maybe Sauron aspired to be an English teacher, in his early good lil Maia days. Oh and what was Saruman's symbol? A white Hand...was there a white Hand on top of Orthanc?