Done if by Hand or Hew if by Sword?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

As far as Ohtar is concerned: he was simply doing his duty. If he hadn't taken the shards then no future heir of Elendil would be able to bear the sword, so it's commonsense that he wouldn't be punished by fate (or a curse). In any case, Isildur entrusted the shards to Ohtar - so Ohtar had the authority to carry the shards. He was a kind of steward, if you like.

A note - curses and all these fate-prescribed things do NOT usually work on "common sense". It would have killed Ohtar, if the sword had such a power and if it still had the power even after being broken. All the tales and legends I can think of now which have something to do with curses or destinies do not operate on "common sense", quite the opposite, most often some poor guy ends up a victim of the curse just because he got in the way in a rather random fashion. If it worked differently in M-E, it would be a rather unique phaenomenon, and I think it would be illogical, even given what we know about curses from the tale of Túrin and co., where they seem also to work "programmed", like machines, no common logic.

[Pitchwife]

Good point about curses and spells not being 'context-sensitive', Legate. As for Ohtar - well, Aragorn's precise words were Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword, so I'd suppose Ohtar was safe as long as he kept the shards sheathed or wrapped up. As a loyal Numenorean and kinsman of Isildur, he would have handled them with the utmost respect and caution.
I still favour the magic protection hypothesis, but it occurs to me Aragorn may have had another good reason for his stubborn reluctance to part with the sword. Théoden was at that time still under Wormtongue's (and thereby Saruman's) influence, and up to his healing by Gandalf, Rohan's position in the coming war would have been open to some doubt. Remember the rumour at the Council of Elrond that the Rohirrim were paying tribute in horses to Mordor. Boromir vehemently denied this, but later, when the Three Hunters met Éomer's éored, Aragorn still felt it necessary to ask whether they were friend or foe of Sauron.
Gandalf obviously knew all the time that Wormtongue was working for Saruman; it isn't mentioned whether he told Aragorn as much, but Aragorn may have done some guessing of his own and decided that it might be better not to leave Andúril out of his sight and reach.
His caution certainly wasn't unwarranted. Later in the same chapter, Háma reveals that Wormtongue was not only a traitor, but also a petty thief:

'Here, lord, is Herugrim, your ancient blade', he said. 'It was found in his chest. Loth was he to render up the keys. Many other things are there which men have missed.'

Surely Saruman would have loved to get the Blade That Was Broken into his hands - another nice trophy to keep with the Elendilmir and the chain on which Isildur had worn the Ring.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Good point about curses and spells not being 'context-sensitive', Legate. As for Ohtar - well, Aragorn's precise words were Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword, so I'd suppose Ohtar was safe as long as he kept the shards sheathed or wrapped up. As a loyal Numenorean and kinsman of Isildur, he would have handled them with the utmost respect and caution.
I still favour the magic protection hypothesis, but it occurs to me Aragorn may have had another good reason for his stubborn reluctance to part with the sword. Théoden was at that time still under Wormtongue's (and thereby Saruman's) influence, and up to his healing by Gandalf, Rohan's position in the coming war would have been open to some doubt. Remember the rumour at the Council of Elrond that the Rohirrim were paying tribute in horses to Mordor. Boromir vehemently denied this, but later, when the Three Hunters met Éomer's éored, Aragorn still felt it necessary to ask whether they were friend or foe of Sauron.
Gandalf obviously knew all the time that Wormtongue was working for Saruman; it isn't mentioned whether he told Aragorn as much, but Aragorn may have done some guessing of his own and decided that it might be better not to leave Andúril out of his sight and reach.
His caution certainly wasn't unwarranted. Later in the same chapter, Háma reveals that Wormtongue was not only a traitor, but also a petty thief:

Surely Saruman would have loved to get the Blade That Was Broken into his hands - another nice trophy to keep with the Elendilmir and the chain on which Isildur had worn the Ring.

beyond this, The blade was pretty much the Heir's token, the symbol by which the Heir and Future King could be recognized as such. I would very much doubt that there were many amoung the people of ME (and still fewer amoung the men) who, given the time that had passed would be able to recognize kinship to the Kingly line in Aragorn just on the basis of his face (even assuning there was anyone around at tha ttime who knew waht Isiuldur had looked like, or where an accurate portrait of him was to be found) If somone had walked aweay with Anduril, there would have been a very real possilbity that they could claim to be Isiuldur heir and many men would gather to him, on top of all his other troubles, Aragorn could have wound up having to deal with a contender to the throne, and one who would likey be commanding a large force. I doubt the rangers (who presumaby knew Aragorn as the heir from the day he was born) on thier own could have stood up to all of the other peoples of ME, seperately or collectively.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

beyond this, The blade was pretty much the Heir's token, the symbol by which the Heir and Future King could be recognized as such. I would very much doubt that there were many amoung the people of ME (and still fewer amoung the men) who, given the time that had passed would be able to recognize kinship to the Kingly line in Aragorn just on the basis of his face (even assuning there was anyone around at tha ttime who knew waht Isiuldur had looked like, or where an accurate portrait of him was to be found) If somone had walked aweay with Anduril, there would have been a very real possilbity that they could claim to be Isiuldur heir and many men would gather to him, on top of all his other troubles, Aragorn could have wound up having to deal with a contender to the throne, and one who would likey be commanding a large force. I doubt the rangers (who presumaby knew Aragorn as the heir from the day he was born) on thier own could have stood up to all of the other peoples of ME, seperately or collectively.

And how would anyone know what the real Narsil looked like, especially when it was reforged? And what a target for Sauron! Make copies of Anduril, and sell all but one on eBay. Raise up one of your Black Númenóreans to be more fair than foul looking, and give him the sword and send him westward. Even if he didn't become King, in the confusion you might get another kinslaying, and so what's not to like?

The only requirement that Sauron's fake sword-wielding puppet might not be able to fake is the 'hands of a healer' thing.

So was it the sword, which no one in Gondor seemed to need when accepting their returned King?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

A note - curses and all these fate-prescribed things do NOT usually work on "common sense". It would have killed Ohtar, if the sword had such a power and if it still had the power even after being broken.

But these curses and such like are also sticklers for semantics and tend to take things very literally. According to Aragorn, the 'curse', if it was such, would only take effect on those who drew the sword. Ohtar did not, presumably, draw the sword, but instead gathered up and bore its shards.

That said, I don't go along with the 'curse' theory. I tend to think it was just all part of Aragorn's general snarkiness at the door of Meduseld, albeit 'heroically' expressed, after the events at Parth Galen and the subsequent long and tiring chase.

It is notable that Aragorn's initial refusal to submit to the rules of the King in whose city he was a guest and subsequent bad-tempered acquiesence contrasts sharply with his later reluctance to enter Minas Tirith until invited. At this stage he is still not yet quite the returning King that he ultimately becomes.

Edit: Crossed with Pitch, who makes the same point about the terms of the 'curse'.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

As far as Ohtar is concerned: he was simply doing his duty. If he hadn't taken the shards then no future heir of Elendil would be able to bear the sword, so it's commonsense that he wouldn't be punished by fate (or a curse). In any case, Isildur entrusted the shards to Ohtar - so Ohtar had the authority to carry the shards. He was a kind of steward, if you like.

I'm in agreement with POTH on this one. Ohtar was given an explicit command by Isildur to take the shards and flee. If there had been some sort of curse on Narsil (which I don't believe was the case), that command by a legitimate Heir of Elendil should have exempted Ohtar from its effects.
The Simarils recognised when they were touched by one who had no right to them. And the Palantíri were most easily used by the Heirs of Elendil or others with inheirited authority. Why should a cursed sword necessarily work differently?

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

One thing I wonder is: Did any other of the other heirs of Elendil ever carry the shards? Or was Aragorn especially favoured?

I don't think it's clearly stated one way or the other. It was said by Elrond during the Council that Ohtar "brought them to Valandil, the Heir of Isildur", but later in Appendix A it states:

Arahael [Aranarth's] son was fostered in Rivendell,...and there also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the Star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.

Logic would say the Heirs ought to have left the shards in Rivendell while they were about in the wild, but plainly Aragorn didn't do so.