TIG LXIX: Meeting at the House of Usher

[The Saucepan Man]

Wow! What a game! Very stressful, but very enjoyable. So thanks to everyone, especially the Moddesses and most especially my wonderful partner in crime, Fea.

Originally Posted by Nog

We have actually anticipated this moment to be wolves together for years - Roa and me - and were ready to stage a real show as the probability of the seer dreaming at least one of us early on was quite big. But then we got lucky and there was no need for it...

I think that you were helped here to an extent by Hakon's meta-reasoning. It looks like he was looking for those who Mira and Nienna might make Wolves and you two didn't figure on his list.

Funny how meta-reasoning works. Despite being fully aware that the roles were assigned randomly, my mind refused to accept the notion that Roa and Nog could be Wolves together.

Originally Posted by Boro

Werebear rule #214: Do not declare war with the wolves on Day 1.

Well, I agreed with your reasoning (although it was, of course, in our interests for Wolves and Bear to be at each others' throats from the outset). But, to be fair, you were not helped by Hakon here. I would be interested to hear from him whether he did dream of you. But, even if not, I presume that the Wolves thought that he did. Is that right Wolves?

Originally Posted by Roa

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that until the last Night, we never discussed working with the lovers. We did go back and forth over killing them, though.

I'd be interested to hear why you didn't kill us, then. Was it purely the threat of our revenge kill, or did you want to preserve the option of teaming up with us? I did wonder when I saw that sally was not a Wolf whether you might decide to kill one of us that Night and take your chances. I also thought that, if Nog was a Wolf, he might be reluctant to do a deal, thinking it unsporting.

The origin of our strategy is fairly simple. We had a revenge kill, but there was no value to us in using it since, by that stage, we would have lost. It's value to us, therefore, was in its deterrent effect. But the only way to bring that to bear was to reveal. Of course, we could not do so while the Bear was around (since we might both be killed at Night and we could not win with the Bear anyway) and nor were we well advised to do so while the Village might consider lynching one of us. In any event, by the time that this option became open to us, we had little choice but to take it, since Fea would most probably otherwise have been lynched.

And Wolves, my assertion that we were confident in hitting a Wolf with our revenge kill was largely bluff (as you may have suspected):

Roa - You fooled me with what looked like genuine reactions twice - first when you backed off after suspecting me so strongly on Day 1 and then again with your reaction to our reveal, which I thought totally genuine. Was that all acting, or was there an element of frustration there? Later, I became increasingly convinced of your Wolfishness, particularly when Fea pointed out to me that the Wolves had a great opportunity to get you lynched on Day 3 and failed to take it.

Nog - I did suspect you in the first Day or so, because I thought you unusually aggressive. I didn't go against you, because we were actually looking to get innocents lynched in the first few Days. After our reveal, though, I started to become increasingly convinced of your innocence. Your reactions looked genuine to me and your (stated) analyses were along the lines that I was thinking (but keeping to myself). There was also an element of meta-reasoning here, as mentioned above.

Brinniel - You played a classic Wolf game perfectly. Relatively quiet, but vocal enough and with sufficient analysis to avoid too much suspicion. You were always in my thougts as a possible Wolf, but there were always others more prominent in my suspicions. Also, you and Nog played the Wolf-on-Wolf votes on McCaber perfectly, and that threw me off your trail a bit.

McCaber - I actually thought that you were one of those innocents that inevitably attract suspicion early in the game for acting inadvertently suspiciously. For that reason, I was quite happy to see you lynched, as we would then have got to the end game much quicker. On reflection, though, it was perhaps in our interests that the Wolves were at least one down by the time it came to conducting the negotiations.

Originally Posted by Fea

Also, Mira at least expressed interest in reading the Lover PMs. Sauce has them on file. I'm sure he'll oblige once he's awake and around.

I do, but they are at home, so that will have to wait. There are about 20 pages worth of PMs, but I can edit them down if anyone is interested.

Originally Posted by Inzil

As good as our lupine crew was, the not-so-innocent lovers made things much easier on them, to be sure. I like to think that in an extremity of savage hunger, the wolves devoured them in the end.

Well, we will have to wait for the narrative. But I always imagined that they would. As I said before, I saw the Lovers as not caring whether they lived or died as long as they were together.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Mira and I talked about what happened to the Lovers post-game. If she goes with it, you'll see.

Now back to grandma's! (I'm clearly not as evil in RL as I let everyone think I am.)

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Mira and I talked about what happened to the Lovers post-game. If she goes with it, you'll see.

Now back to grandma's! (I'm clearly not as evil in RL as I let everyone think I am.)

Oh it'll happen. I just need the inspiration to write the narrations. This whole school thing is really interfering.

Great game everyone! Especially the wolfsies and luuuurvly lovers! But grrrr wolfsies for killing off Borobear so early. I was so looking forward to the havoc he was going to wreck.

Still waiting on those cookies, sally dear.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

But grrrr wolfsies for killing off Borobear so early. I was so looking forward to the havoc he was going to wreck.

Don't be too bothered, after all it just proves werebear rules #1 thru #642 (excluding #214 and #495):

Mira's lack of strategy is supremely better than Borangutan's attempt to come in with a plan for the werebear.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Don't be too bothered, after all it just proves werebear rules #1 thru #642 (excluding #214 and #495):

Mira's lack of strategy is supremely better than Borangutan's attempt to come in with a plan for the werebear.

Hey I had a strategy! Kill the people who annoyed me.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Hey I had a strategy! Kill the people who annoyed me.

My mistake, I completely misread it.

"This crazy bear...I think her name was Mira, came up with an infinitely superior strategy than what Borangutan could ever possibly come up with."

[Pitchwife]

Fea and Sauce, you're a pair of evil, scheming, unconscionable, brilliant cuties! All is fair in Love and Werewolf, of course, and you played your cards splendidly. I really hated having to miss Day 3, even more when I came back, saw what had happened in the meantime and found myself D.O.A. just when the game got truly exciting - but it was great entertainment to read, and I bit my nails in suspense how it would all turn out. Congratulations on a magnificent performance and a deserved victory!
Same to the Wolves. If I'm permitted to quote myself -

Originally Posted by Pitch #204

The stuff of nightmares!

Indeed. Near the end of Day 2, I had this horrible hunch that she was right (so good decision to kill me when you did!), but just couldn't lay my finger on sufficient evidence, being way too tired at the time. When Greenie was revealed as the cobbler*, I naturally doubted my suspicion, but my death pretty much confirmed it. Don't know how it would have gone if I'd survived for another Day - you might have succeeded fooling me again, especially with your reactions to the Lovers' reveal. Reading Nog's fervent pleas on behalf of the innocents, I found myself thinking, 'He'd never be such a flaming hypocrite if he were a wolf, would he?' But of course you would - what a cunning way to sound Fea's and Sauce's true intentions, and great acting!
*(I'm very curious whether she actually spotted you two as wolves and did it on purpose, counting on herself to be lynched so that the suspicion she'd voiced would be discredited when her role was revealed.)
Brinn, congrats on eluding me completely! You were a worthy packmate to our two loudmouths. And when you drew attention to Greenie's suspicion of Nog and Roa, was that a deliberate attempt to find out who would take the bait and need to be killed?
McCaber, finally, was the ultimate pawn sacrifice. Nice wolf-on-wolf there.
Boro - seems the Bear is an endangered species these Days, but at least you had a juicy last meal devouring our Seer.
Condolences and respect to all my fellow innocents, especially Nerwen and Zil who showed us how to lose a game gracefully. Out of curiosity, Morsul, who would you have Hunted if you hadn't been lynched?

Originally Posted by Nog

On another issue: don't blame yourself Hakon, it's not everyDay the seer makes the right choices.

I second that. It's largely a matter of luck, and staying alive long enough (which is the trickier part).

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Funny how meta-reasoning works. Despite being fully aware that the roles were assigned randomly, my mind refused to accept the notion that Roa and Nog could be Wolves together.

I really thought the fact that we weren't at each others' throats would really tip everyone off.

Well, I agreed with your reasoning (although it was, of course, in our interests for Wolves and Bear to be at each others' throats from the outset). But, to be fair, you were not helped by Hakon here. I would be interested to hear from him whether he did dream of you. But, even if not, I presume that the Wolves thought that he did. Is that right Wolves?

Actually, Boromir was a lucky kill for us. We just wanted to get rid of a vocal and strong player, and lay false trails along the way. We had no inkling that Boromir was the bear. I was pulling for you, BTW.

I'd be interested to hear why you didn't kill us, then. Was it purely the threat of our revenge kill, or did you want to preserve the option of teaming up with us? I did wonder when I saw that sally was not a Wolf whether you might decide to kill one of us that Night and take your chances. I also thought that, if Nog was a Wolf, he might be reluctant to do a deal, thinking it unsporting.

The unsporting thing was why we didn't kill you on Night 2. And as I said, there really wasn't a back and forth about working with you. Really, the reason we didn't kill you was the odds. We had better odds with you alive than with you dead.

Roa - You fooled me with what looked like genuine reactions twice - first when you backed off after suspecting me so strongly on Day 1 and then again with your reaction to our reveal, which I thought totally genuine. Was that all acting, or was there an element of frustration there? Later, I became increasingly convinced of your Wolfishness, particularly when Fea pointed out to me that the Wolves had a great opportunity to get you lynched on Day 3 and failed to take it.

Had I been an innocent, the frustration would have been real. As a wolf, however, I was only intrigued to see how it played out. I admit, I hoped that more people would be on the "Yeah, let's lynch Fea!" idea.

Though I assure you, if we had one more Nightly kill, it would have been one of you.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Actually, Boromir was a lucky kill for us. We just wanted to get rid of a vocal and strong player, and lay false trails along the way. We had no inkling that Boromir was the bear. I was pulling for you, BTW.

That's refreshing to hear, I thought I was just too darned obvious. Which was why I killed Hakon too, I didn't know whether he dreamed of me or not, protecting myself did not enter into my head. It just looked like he was playing the seer in a similar way to what I would. That is talking about a plan for the seer, but since he was the seer he was describing his own plan. Like what I wad attempting as the bear, lengthily describing what the bear should do, and try to do it. Although, my ultimate plan was to lynch the wolves and go for gifted at night, I figured this would keep the innocent village off my case for a while, but also start to eliminate wolves.

Which leads me to werebear rule #495: do not pave a nice road to wolf victory by lynching the hunter and killing the seer.

Absolutely brilliant strategy Sauce and Fea, you (like me) had to think about your own survival whether it be with the wolves or the village. And you put yourself in the perfect spot with all the power, the village couldn't lynch you and who cares if you gave the wolves a headache about whether to just kill you or not.

Well done wolf-team, but you may have under-estimated the threat, Nienna can probably remember my wolf-guesses after my death and I wasn't anywhere close. The only baddie I was came close to guessing was Greenie. I guess I could include Sauce, since he turned out to be a rotten villain too.

Super game Mira and Nienna, thanks for getting me to join, I can't believe I was actually dragging my feet, because I would hate myself for at least an hour if I missed out.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Roa

I was pulling for you, BTW.

Well, it would have completely changed the game, had you had your way. I was hoping that I had attracted enough suspicion on Day 1 (thanks largely to you, funnily enough) for the Wolves to leave me alone. Also, Fea and I were both mentioned as possible Cobblers at various times, which we thought might be to our benefit. In that regard, we were quite annoyed when Greenie turned out to be the Cobbler.

Originally Posted by Roa

We had better odds with you alive than with you dead.

Why? Because of the revenge kill? Or because you thought that our votes more likely to favour you than the innocents? Because, as known non-Wolves, our continued presence increased the chances of innocents voting for a Wolf.

I am interested, because I was really worried that you would attack one of us at Night and go for the sole victory. As a Wolf, I would have been sorely tempted to.

[Hakon]

I never did dream of Boro. I dreamed of Sally the first night and Pitchwife the second night. I originally planned of dreaming Pitch the first night and SPM the second night and Boro the third night but things shifted. I had SPM pegged for the ranger around the time I died and Boro pegged for either the cobbler or a wolf. I would like to apologize for being such a horrible seer. I clearly make a much better ranger.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I never did dream of Boro. I dreamed of Sally the first night and Pitchwife the second night. I originally planned of dreaming Pitch the first night and SPM the second night and Boro the third night but things shifted. I had SPM pegged for the ranger around the time I died and Boro pegged for either the cobbler or a wolf. I would like to apologize for being such a horrible seer. I clearly make a much better ranger.

I wasn't much shakes as a ranger. Then again, as Fea accurately noted in game, the strategy of the ranger changes quite a bit when all the other gifteds check out by Day 2. You're limited to trying to protect likely innocents. Unfortunately, the only innocent I was entirely sure of was me.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I wasn't much shakes as a ranger. Then again, as Fea accurately noted in game, the strategy of the ranger changes quite a bit when all the other gifteds check out by Day 2. You're limited to trying to protect likely innocents. Unfortunately, the only innocent I was entirely sure of was me.

I am annoyed that I did not dream of you in this game. My meta game reasoning had you as a gifted. The reason being I am always suspicious of you and the seer could talk with gifteds they dreamed of in this game.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I am annoyed that I did not dream of you in this game. My meta game reasoning had you as a gifted. The reason being I am always suspicious of you and the seer could talk with gifteds they dreamed of in this game.

Could certainly have made a difference, especially if you'd gotten hold of Morsul. All of us able to PM might have been decisive. Ah, the possibilites....

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I am annoyed that I did not dream of you in this game. My meta game reasoning had you as a gifted. The reason being I am always suspicious of you and the seer could talk with gifteds they dreamed of in this game.

And 3rded to what Pitch and Nog said.

A lot of the times too, it depends upon not only what side you are on, but who your enemies are. Like my first game as a wolf, I had phantom and Lalaith as partners, we went straight through and none of us got lynched. But another game as a wolf, phantom and Lalaith were innocent, and I was lynched Day 1 - both voted for me and phantom gave the final vote to put me in the lead, because they knew my wolf-habits and I was acting the same.

Or I should have figured out in this game, when Nog and I are on opposing sides, I have been a pain in his rear too many times, and if he doesn't kill me early I make him regret it.

It's not that being killed/lynched early = you played bad, a lot of it depends not only on who is playing, but what roles they have.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Spm

Why? Because of the revenge kill? Or because you thought that our votes more likely to favour you than the innocents? Because, as known non-Wolves, our continued presence increased the chances of innocents voting for a Wolf.

I am interested, because I was really worried that you would attack one of us at Night and go for the sole victory. As a Wolf, I would have been sorely tempted to

I don't actually remember all the PM's we shared by then, but my view was that your revenge-kill might actually cripple our lines as there were such great odds for you to hit it right. I mean you would have gone with lynching Roa the next Day - and the other one had decent chances of shooting it right with the vengeance - and staying as a known innocent that Inzil could guard the Night he would then have died... so the lynching on the next Day would have been really tense - and bad in numbers for us.

And well anyway... There were a bit too many if's with that vengeange kill (the possibility of Roa being lynched to add there) and the remaining lover playing for the innocents as a known innocent - alongside Inzil making it two in the worst case etc...

So a deal... at least in the short sight was better for us. I mean I actually wasn't sure the game was going to end when it did. It was actually 2 against 3 and not an ending position...

But talking of my position, I would have voted for making it a shared win by killing Nerwen then, but who knows had I been persuaded...


On another issue: don't blame yourself Hakon, it's not everyDay the seer makes the right choices. Quite the contrary...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I admit, I hoped that more people would be on the "Yeah, let's lynch Fea!" idea.

I understand, and I am not in the least bit offended.

I would have lynched me too.

And I would like to second Pitch on congratulating Zil and Nerwen for showing the world how to lose gracefully (and with brilliant parody).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

And I would like to second Pitch on congratulating Zil and Nerwen for showing the world how to lose gracefully (and with brilliant parody).

I'm amused and honoured to have made it into your sig.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I laughed my entire way through reading it, and still found myself giggling twenty minutes later.

[Hakon]

One thing I would like to add is that when Boro and I spoke after our deaths he told me he was going to tell me who the wolves are, I told him let me guess first. I guessed two correct, Roa and Nog.

[Mirandir]

Man I hate how you can only rep so many people in 24 hours...Sorry if I haven't gotten to you yet.