The relationship betwen Music/Singing and Magic

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yet the Wizards, most obviously associated with magic, don't sing at all, do they? Why don't Gandalf or Saruman sing?

Well, I would say that since the Ainur are outside the Music, it wouldn't be pulsing through the way it was with Arda itself. I think that this is also why the elves sing more, and their songs are powerful- they are bound to the Music while Men are not, so they feel more connected to it. I don't think that Men in Middle-Earth sing as much as Elves, and this is because they are outside the Music, and can choose their own paths. The Hobbits we see are a special case, and their powerful singing might be because they were following Eru's will, and so maybe they became part of the Music, which is why their songs became so powerful. Or maybe the reason that it was the Hobbits' task to destroy the ring is that they like singing.

I imagine it as a sort of endless music just beyond consciousness as Arda unfolds, and so those that sing (because all songs in Middle-Earth are powerful) just tap into it, at different levels depending on who they are, and can influence Middle-Earth through the music that they are a part of. (I can't really explain it, but it reminded of one Doctor Who episode that seems to have a similar theme, but with only one person feeling the beat of drums. I couldn't find a very good video of it on YouTube, but the first half of this should do)

[Bêthberry]

Just out of interest I thought I'd link to Mithalwen's thread on Music and Magic in Middle earth. There's some good references there that pertain to this thread.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, I would say that since the Ainur are outside the Music, it wouldn't be pulsing through the way it was with Arda itself. I think that this is also why the elves sing more, and their songs are powerful- they are bound to the Music while Men are not, so they feel more connected to it. I don't think that Men in Middle-Earth sing as much as Elves, and this is because they are outside the Music, and can choose their own paths.

I'm not sure we can say that the Ainur are outside the music; nor that men are not bound to the music.

True that the Ainur were the offspring of his [Eru's] thought. Yet immediately we read that He spoke to them of a music and propounded themes of music to them. Yet what would be the difference between thought and speaking except that one is internal and the other vocalised? Both have proceeded out of Illuvatar's mind. And as the Ainur sing, they become more and more familiar with the music, increasing in unison and harmony. Then, kindled with the Flame Imperishable, they are bidden by Illuvatar to adorn the music with their own thoughts and devices. So, their minds are woven into and bound with the music.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, thought it has been said that a great still shall be made before Illuvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Illuvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Illuvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Illuvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

When rebuking Melkor, Illuvatar states that no theme shall be played that hath not its uttermost source in Illuvatar: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument inthe devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

All things, then, are part of the music, part of what Illuvatar imagined. And when He showed the Ainur their music that was sustained in the Void but not of the Void, they saw the coming of the Children of Illuvatar, who were conceived in the third music.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

Therefore when they [the Ainur] beheld them, [men and elves, the children] more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Illuvatar reflected anew.

Music is creation, is the life force in Tolkien's work. Life does not, within the mythology, exist outside the music. Elves and men, like Ainur, may not be aware of the entire unison and harmony, but they are part of the music and bound to it.

As for the question of magic, I don't have the Letters at hand, but I recall that there are letters wherein Tolkien strove to explain magic as art. What seems magical is nothing more than the finest work of art. Perhaps it was in his later years that he particularly wished to disassociate elven creation from magic, but he did attempt to clarify his words. His magic is certainly very much different from Harry Potter magic.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Interesting question about the wizards. I tend to think that they didn't sing because they were "undercover" during their tenure in Middle-earth; clearly, it was intended that they be thought of as old Men, not as Elves or Ainur. I can't recall any instances in which Men used music as a means of magic or power, and if the wizards were to do so, the immediate presumption might be that they are some kind of strange Elven-kind. It's possible that at some point earlier in his time as one of the Istari, Gandalf at least did use singing as a means of implementing his personal power, since the Men of the North gave him the name Gandalf, which Tolkien at least once translates as "elf of the wand," or "elf with a staff." With that mistake behind him, he may have eschewed further uses of music to avoid becoming thought of as an Elf.

Though the wizards don't use music, they do use Words of Power, and as fans of The Music Man know, singing is just sustained talking. In some traditions, "songs" are not words set to music, as we think of them, but intricate poems. So it's possible that "music" might be used by the wizards in the form of recitation, the words providing meter and rhythm and tone, if not specific diatonic or modal pitch. I should go look at the text, but it seems to me that there are indications that some of the songs in LotR are "sung" in this way (I'm thinking of the Song of Luthien, the Song of Durin, and Bilbo's song about Earendil). If such is the case, then it would make sense that during this mission, the music of Istari was the music of carefully chosen words, spoken in particular meter and tone.

Well, it's another thought.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

So it's possible that "music" might be used by the wizards in the form of recitation, the words providing meter and rhythm and tone, if not specific diatonic or modal pitch.

Many real-world languages rely on pitch accent (no pun intended) or tone rather than stress. I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between the former two, but both seem to have to do with the use of musical pitch to semantically distinguish words which are otherwise homophones. Maybe there was something of the like in the Elvish languages - doesn't Tolkien mention somewhere that plain Elvish talk sounded like singing to mortal ears? In this case, it would be relevant that the two or three 'spells' we hear Gandalf using are in an Elvish tongue (Naur an edraith ammen, naur dan i ngaurhoth, etc.).

Originally Posted by Ibrin

I should go look at the text, but it seems to me that there are indications that some of the songs in LotR are "sung" in this way (I'm thinking of the Song of Luthien, the Song of Durin, and Bilbo's song about Earendil).

I'd imagine that the rhymed songs would have been sung to a melody, whereas alliterative verse (such as the Song of the Mounds of Mundburg or Malbeth the Seer's Words) was rhythmically declaimed, with or without musical accompaniment.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

If such is the case, then it would make sense that during this mission, the music of Istari was the music of carefully chosen words, spoken in particular meter and tone.

In this context, it seems noteworthy that Saruman's power (or at least the only part of it which we see him using in the narrative) is so intimately connected with his Voice.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

In some traditions, "songs" are not words set to music, as we think of them, but intricate poems. So it's possible that "music" might be used by the wizards in the form of recitation, the words providing meter and rhythm and tone, if not specific diatonic or modal pitch.

Hm. Maybe the Istari were more into rap, you know, Grandmaster G and Pimp the White battling it with the mike? Maybe that was what happened during the Wizard duel up in Orthanc?

Originally Posted by Morth

In fact, Tolkien reaches the point of lunacy when folks start singing or reciting poems at the drop of a hat, sometimes at the most inopportune times throughout the story.

Haha, I must admit that I cringe at times when the singing reaches the point of absurdity. Though I suppose that if we are willing to accept dragons and Elves, we should also be able to accept a bit of, to our modern sensibilities, inopportune singing.

Nice replies by the way. Hopefully I can give them more attention a bit later.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Hm. Maybe the Istari were more into rap, you know, Grandmaster G and Pimp the White battling it with the mike? Maybe that was what happened during the Wizard duel up in Orthanc?

Oh, the horror...!

Actually, some years before rap began (as modern culture thinks of it), I was in a choir that performed what was then called "rhythmic singing," or spoken chorus. Unlike sprechgesang and sprechstimme (which I was exposed to some years later), there was no sustained or modulated pitch used. The words were all spoken, but in very specific meter, and the entire four-part work was performed in the form of a fugue (the piece was titled "Geographical Fugue" by Ernst Toch, and was first performed in 1930, I believe). It was quite peculiar yet interesting, and though I never again performed such a thing, I've heard a few others (probably imitators of Toch), before rap came along. Very unusual, and fun in an odd way. I suspect it's something on this order that I think of when I imagine music in words alone, apart from the sounds of the words themselves.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm not sure we can say that the Ainur are outside the music; nor that men are not bound to the music.

I think that Men are part of the Music, but it's just that not all they do was decided beforehand, or something like that. Anyway, the main point I was trying to get across is that it seems that Elves are more in tune with the Music than Men.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I think that Men are part of the Music, but it's just that not all they do was decided beforehand, or something like that. Anyway, the main point I was trying to get across is that it seems that Elves are more in tune with the Music than Men.

I think that this is often most people's understanding (and was mine for quite some time). It is easy to read of Bilbo's love of elven song in Rivendell and assume that the elves had some kind of higher ability at aesthetics.

However, it is also possible, given the passages in The Silm regarding the creation of the Children, that men sang the form of song which the Music intended them to sing, and that only by the long passage of time would they come to harmonise better, so that their choir would sing triumphantly at the end of days. After all, even the Ainur needed practice before they could harmonise.

Originally Posted by Morth

Music and magic have been closely associated throughout history. Music as a source to draw closer to a deity is a very biblical point of view, which Tolkien obviously drew from. The O.T. abounds in song/prayer -- the Psalms of David, for instance, and Solomon's Song of Songs. From a more Pagan point of view, incantations are often rhymed and hummed or sung (Santería, aboriginal tribes, New Age Wiccan dimestore variety witches, etc.). There is a cadence to Buddhist chants, as well as Islamic prayers. Music abounds in Religions, most of whom eschew the term 'magic', yet who practice the same liturgical spells in their rituals as did the first Shamans of the Cro-magnon.

Tolkien merely harnessed this age-old process as a fundamental tenet of Middle-earth's creation and its ongoing creativity. In fact, Tolkien reaches the point of lunacy when folks start singing or reciting poems at the drop of a hat, sometimes at the most inopportune times throughout the story.

Originally Posted by Skip Spence

Haha, I must admit that I cringe at times when the singing reaches the point of absurdity. Though I suppose that if we are willing to accept dragons and Elves, we should also be able to accept a bit of, to our modern sensibilities, inopportune singing.

It isn't just accepting dragons and elves, but a culture of respect for words where even inanimate objects like swords and knives are given special names which seem to hold their power.

But it isn't just ancient cultures or religious cultures which use non-verbal forms of communication such as music and rhythm. Music is exceptionally important to adolecents of our age and woe betide the teenager whose musical choice matches that of mum and dad!

But other than Tom the Bomb, who, it can be argued, functions as Tolkien's Holy Fool, just where are these inopportune, cringeable moments of song?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

However, it is also possible, given the passages in The Silm regarding the creation of the Children, that men sang the form of song which the Music intended them to sing, and that only by the long passage of time would they come to harmonise better, so that their choir would sing triumphantly at the end of days.

Well we obviously haven't got to that stage yet!

[Durelin]

Skip mentioned the Barrow-wight's song in his first post. I did not read over the previous thread very carefully, so I don't know if this was discussed over there, or if it has been discussed on another thread about Barrow-wights, but this thread made me think of some things I looked at for a paper I wrote for a mythology class. I wrote it about the "draugar" of Norse/Icelandic folklore, and discussed at the end a bit about the continuation of a lot of the aspects of draugr in Medieval Europe and even modern times, and talked a bit about Tolkien's barrow-wights.

One of the main things was the connection with verse. Of course as has been pointed out from the beginning of both threads, music/verse is often related to magic, but one of the types of magic its related with is that of the "undead." I dunno, I thought it was cool when I did the comparison.

Frodo does not see the Barrow-wight, but he does hear it, as it sings a verse. The connection of song or poetry with the draugar is not an uncommon one. Nora K. Chadwick notes in "Norse Ghosts: A Study in the Draugr and the Haugbui" that there is a “constant association” between the draugar and the barrow, and “skaldskap and music.” The draugr of a king named Ögváldr in Hálf’s Saga is heard chanting in his barrow, declaring his former kingship; and the draugr of Gunnarr in Njál’s Saga is seen sitting in his barrow staring at the moon and singing. In Hervarar Saga, Hervör converses with the draugr of her father, Angantýr, in verse. There are magical happenings involving draugar in which a person receives the gift of poetry or eloquent speech from a draugr. In a story contained in the Flateyjarbók, the shepherd Hallbjörn wishes to compose a panegyric for a skald buried in a barrow he often sleeps on at night. One night the dead skald visits him, and recites a verse to the shepherd while holding him by the tongue, granting him the gift of poetry. In another story in the Flateyjarbók, a man spends a night on a barrow, and “dreams” that he enters the barrow with the two draugar who occupy it, and fights one of the draugr for “gold which had the power to bestow the gift of speech” to give to his mother, who is dumb.

Tolkien’s Barrow-wight displays strongly these supernatural aspects of draugar and their connections with song or verse. The power of verse is especially clear in the rescue of the Hobbits by Tom Bombadil. After Frodo cuts the hand off of the crawling arm, “there was a shriek and the light vanished,” and in his desperation Frodo remembers Tom Bombadil and “the rhyme he had taught him.” He sings the rhyme, and Tom Bombadil answers it with his own verse and suddenly enters the barrow with a rumbling of stone. Tom then drives away the Barrow-wight with a verse. The power of “dreams” is touched upon when Merry, one of the four Hobbits, wakes, and remembers what has happened, he “clutche[s] at his breast,” believing he had been stabbed, but then says, “No…I have been dreaming.” Apparently the dreams were vivid and powerful enough to seem like very real happenings. (That last part was related to the topos that draugar would sometimes appear to people in a dream-like state, but would leave a physical token or sign behind, proving that they were there.)

It wasn't the best paper (it never is), or best researched (I would love to do more, but you know...), but I really had fun writing it.

When it comes to song and magic, you could talk about Tom Bombadil all day...

[Pitchwife]

Thanks, Durelin, that's an interesting connection between the draugar and singing - considering that the Elves seem to have made the most use of musical magic, and Celtic folklore closely associates (sometimes even identifies) the elves or fairies with the spirits of the Dead, as both kinds of beings are said to dwell in hills/mounds/barrows.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

the piece was titled "Geographical Fugue" by Ernst Toch, and was first performed in 1930, I believe

That one! Yes, it sort of rocks in a way. Here's a link to a good performance, if anyone's interested in what it sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b59Tpi_tDYo
The funny side is that the 'lyrics' consist entirely of place names from all over the world (hence the title).
Toch probably got some inspiration from the German and French Dadaists' experiments with Lautpoesie (sound poetry) - rhythmic recitations of nonsense or half-nonsense words/syllables for musical effect (e.g. Hugo Ball's famous Caravan or Kurt Schwitters' Ursonate, probably the most elaborate attempt in this direction). Some of these things can sound very much like incantations.