WWLXX: At the Prison of Ice

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is also just as likely, taking Professor Tolkien's advice, that a servant of the enemy would likely appear fair. And on Day 1, those who look like they are making sense, tend to get written off as innocent. Why is reasonableness a sign of innocence? It can be, but it can just as likely be a cunning wolf.

You know what? We know that, Boro. Reasonableness can't prove innocence... but it can't prove guilt, either. Wolves try all kinds of tactics.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When did I backpedal? I've what anyone has seen happen before, that gifteds have just as much reason to purposefully attract suspicion as wolves have just as much reason to not want it. And that making sense doesn't make one innocent.

I wouldn't so much say you backpedalled as that you haven't made it at all clear what you are proposing. You certainly seemed to be implying that we should lynch helpful people first and suspicious ones last. Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with– however, it's a point you could have made a lot more clearly and concisely.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Both you and Roa are assuming that I'm on some anti-rationality crusade. I'm not. I'm speaking on Day 1, but too many times already we've been crippled on Day 1 because we simply "let the gifteds do what they need to do and we will do what we need to do?" But there is a major dilemma, because putting those two together has been leading to getting more gifteds lynched on Day 1 than wolves.

And this is true... but do you have a better idea?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I neither preach nor teach. I am what I am, and I know what I am. Someone's got to be.

What?

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Morsul.

[Macalaure]

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

1: none
2: Nogrod, disagrees without a fuss, which actually doesn't look very suspicious; Pitch's comment might be suspicious.
3: Inziladun, starting with "Huh?" and continuing; Nerwen, first merely picking up what Roa and Inzil said, then going into attack now (which would look innocent if her tone wasn't so darn sinister); Morsul made himself comfortable on the fence.

Roa is innocent-looking because, while maintaining the discussion, she puts herself out there and doesn't just stay around the corners. Of course, we're talking about Roa here - so she's probably evil anyway. Brinn's mild defense looks genuine. Bes's response (#39) is a bit awkward, but doesn't fit my infallible categories.

Mnemo, Shasta, and trom ignore the matter, though Shasta at least acknowledges that it's being talked about (which I don't know what to think of).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

Mac, even on your own terms that doesn't make sense... because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one. At least one wolf nearly always keeps out of the limelight.

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

As for your saying I'm "attacking" him and being "sinister"... no idea where you're getting that from.

EDIT:X'd with some Morsuls and Greenies. Also the mod.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok so the Deadline(If I counted right Is While I'm at work)

So uh um Boro or Mac....

Boro Seemed strange for what he was saying and it was Suspicious but as read it again seems reasonable but then again b his own logic I shouldn't dismiss him because of it

Mac hasn't said much but the quote I talked about earlier still bugs me and has a uncomfrtable feel to it he used the same basic logic of not posted much for 8 people yet came up with 3 innocent 3 bad and 2 neutral...

boro mac boro mac boro mac.......


++Macalaure

Not just that one post he also calls Nerwen sinister which I never saw or thught so it felt like a tossed suspicion

He also basically came after anyone who disagreed with Boro.

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

I just disagree with this if he talked himself into a corner he could keep it up to look innocent More importantly if he Is innocent it would make Mac look god for defending him.

Not much but being forced to vote now....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

Sounds as if you're saying anyone who said anything in response to Boro could be evil. Aren't you painting with a rather broad brush?

x/d with Nerwen and Nog

[Thinlómien]

Although I've been and I am busy - so not necessarily much posting toDay especially as I'm sharing net with Greenie - I must say it feels so good to play ww again after missing the few latest games. *stretches* I've been just laughing at everybody's stupid jokes here and feeling sort of at home. Aww.

*cough* Now to business maybe.

Here's what I think of people this far:
Inziladun - seems okay enough, but knowing him, I wouldn't make quick judgements.
Mnemosyne - okay, here we go again, but she seems quite eyebrow-raising to me. Her posting seems to be bantering mixed with Captain Obvious statements to make her seem reasonable. Plus, she's been continuing the rather pointless "should be careful about gifteds" debate. That definetely doesn't make me feel good about her, although I must say that banter+Cap O.B. statements are an easy way for anyone to play in early Day1.
Boromir88 - is crazy and all over the place and sayiong weird stuff, but he doesn't really seem too bad; I think he would be a bit more careful as a wolf.
Eomer of the Rohirrim - not around.
Loslote - has not said much of consequence but is funny. Could be anything.
Morsul - no idea yet.
Brinn - seems like her normal self ie could be anything based on the evidence so far.
Pitchwife - I feel inclined to like him because he's funny, agreeable and makes sense (at times). But then again, especially as he himself pointed it out, I'm wondering if he's too agreeable to be good.
Nienna - I don't get why everybody considers her innocent. All I have seen her do this far is to make a few very Cap O.B. statements and indirectly starting the useless talk about being careful about lynching gifteds. And really, why does anyone need to say "we don't want to lynch any gifteds"? *takes a deep breath* Okay, I know I've suspected her on faulty reasons before, but at this point she does merit my suspicion.
Nogrod - another weird type. He is very nonsensical for himself: he popped in several times and most of his stuff is just banter. Normally he's more of the "cut the crap" sort, so I'm wondering if he's a wolf and more bantery because he doesn't really need to use his massive brain to finding wolves or enjoying his role way too much. Or both.
Macalaure - I hope is not making references at my relatively recent gifted performance. *glares*
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - that's me, that's meeeeeeeeeee! *walks to the airplane and is never seen again*
Nerwen - seems rather controversial. The weird thing is that she doesn't usually do that as a wolf.
Roa - seems innocent this far. Let's not lynch her on Day3 (or was it 4? ).
Bes - I appreciate her effort to get a grasp of the game, but looking forward to more stuff.
Shasta - seems quite good.
wilwa - hasn't been around.
Greenie - is waiting for me to give her the net...
tromkehra - looking forwards to seeing more out of character stuff.


edit: xed with Maccalaure (would sound Italian, eh?)

[Nienna]

Ahhkk I have 5 minutes before work but I'll be on later.

I agree with Mac about Boro. He was just stating something and then when everyone jumped on it he defended the statement.

I see the Nog I know and love coming back.

Lommy is suspecting me for absolutely no reason... this seems vaguely familiar .... I'm going to do my best not to suspect you out of pure retaliation right now.

No one else stands out to me.

Edit: Crossed w/ Morsul

[A Little Green]

Honestly, though the debate about lynching/not lynching reasonable people has made people talk a lot and given us stuff to read, I can't help but see it as a rather stupid topic. We shouldn't take people as innocent if they make sense, but that doesn't mean we should lynch them, either. Being sensible has nothing to do with innocence or guilt. Neither has not being sensible. Therefore, lynching people based on making sense or not making sense is pointless. Debating about it is likewise pointless. Period.

I have a vague good feeling about Lommy, Brinn, Boro and Nog (!!!). I'm trying not to feel suspicious of people simply because of keeping up a pointless debate that helps us in no way (except, as I stated before, to give us stuff to read), but I could hazard a guess that there is at least one baddie there (namely thinking about Roa, Inzil, Morsul and Nerwen). Way too many people are under my radar.

I'll be popping in and out until DL, I have stuff to do but I can check and post regularly. Hooray!


EDIT: x-ed with Morsul

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Morsul

Sometimes it isn't recall my last bandwagon not a single wolf... *Ducks under bucket thrown by nienna*

But surely voting records can be highly useful even if there aren't bandwaggoning wolves!

[Morsul the Dark]

That is true, however I personally place less faith in them than other people... I mean especially Day 1 Votes people tend to make votes based on strange or small points. That being Said I understand Why people put stock into them. But looking back I don't see many cases where a wolf was nabbed based on a vote. It's a tough call...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

A thought to greet you with, as I bright the day (insert -yawn-):

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

That is true, however I personally place less faith in them than other people... I mean especially Day 1 Votes people tend to make votes based on strange or small points. That being Said I understand Why people put stock into them. But looking back I don't see many cases where a wolf was nabbed based on a vote. It's a tough call...

(bolding mine, for emphasis)

I haven't played WW with Morsul before, but if this isn't the most prime example of wishy-washy fence-sitting I've ever seen...!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa

I agree with Mac- a gifted that gets themselves lynched deserves their fate. The only people who have a reason to try to spot gifteds are the wolves. The rest of us are supposed to be wolf spotting.

Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

Roa said...

Originally Posted by Roa

Yes *gasp* it's wolves. There are three of them.

That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

So Roa tried to mislead us about her knowledge of the situation - and I can't see a reason what a gifted Roa would gain from that against the wolves at Nights as they would not start thinking she's someone they can afford to ignore from that. But a wolf-Roa might gain the edge in a possible tight voting if people thought she was not up to the situation...

If no one else screams a wolf toDay my vote will definitively go to Roa.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

Roa said...

That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

Why? If anything lupine, it looks more like one of those "counting" slips. But the thing is, there were originally going to be three wolves. How do you know she didn't just get it wrong?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

How do you know she didn't just get it wrong?

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.