Nenya or the Elessar?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Here's another example that doesn't exactly help the Nenya case with respect to the mallorns, brought up (elsewhere, by Maiarian Man). Treebeard says...

'They are falling rather behind in there, I guess,' he said. 'Neither this country, nor anything else outside the Golden Wood, is what it was when Celeborn was young.'

That seems to obliquely speak of the ultimate futility of Galadriel's works in Lórien.
The Elves there would almost appear to be stuck in a fairer version of the torment of the Nazgûl: they had arrested change and death, at the price of being trapped in a rut where they could not change or adapt for the better, either.
The power of preservation the Three provided was a temporary shield against decay, and could provide a simulacrum of the Undying Lands. In the end though, the effort to arrest change in a world in which change was the natural state of things only led to sadness, as the closer they got to Valinor, the more aware they became of the differences between what they'd done with the Three, and the 'real thing' in the West.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

That seems to obliquely speak of the ultimate futility of Galadriel's works in Lórien

How so? Treebeard regarded the Golden Wood fair. They're behind because the workld outside was decaying and growing less beautiful.

The power of preservation the Three provided was a temporary shield against decay, and could provide a simulacrum of the Undying Lands. In the end though, the effort to arrest change in a world in which change was the natural state of things only led to sadness, as the closer they got to Valinor, the more aware they became of the differences between what they'd done with the Three, and the 'real thing' in the West.

I never got that (things wrought by the Three leading to sadness) impression. In the Silmarillion, it states that wherever the Three dwelt, there also was mirth. If it had led to sadness, as you suggested, Galadriel would not have wished for the the One Ring to never have come into existance or remained forever lost, implying that she'd never go back to Valinor while Nenya lasted. Her realm was the perfect semblance of the true West.
I believe the sadness stemmed from the realization that the Three were bound to the One: should it be recovered or destroyed, the Three must fail with it. The elves were duped. I think Elrond and Galadriel were satisfied with what they could create for their realms with the Vilya and Nenya, and their respective Valinorean atmospheres. But it was the threat of Sauron and the undoing of their works that I understand was their sadness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

How so? Treebeard regarded the Golden Wood fair. They're behind because the workld outside was decaying and growing less beautiful.

Fair Lórien certainly was. However, in the scheme of things in Middle-earth it was unnatural. A pocket of timelesseness had been created in a world in which time was not static. I don't believe that state could not have endured indefinitely, regardless of whether the One perished, or remained unfound. The Elves were ultimately doomed to fade if they did not return to the Undying Lands, and neither Nenya, nor the other two of the Elven Rings would have been able to stop that. I think Galadriel and Elrond knew that their actions with Nenya and Vilya were only temporary.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Fair Lórien certainly was. However, in the scheme of things in Middle-earth it was unnatural. A pocket of timelesseness had been created in a world in which time was not static. I don't believe that state could not have endured indefinitely, regardless of whether the One perished, or remained unfound. The Elves were ultimately doomed to fade if they did not return to the Undying Lands, and neither Nenya, nor the other two of the Elven Rings would have been able to stop that. I think Galadriel and Elrond knew that their actions with Nenya and Vilya were only temporary.

Temporary because of the inevitable doom that must come in the aftermath of Frodo's quest. Yes, Mandos doomed the elves who stayed in Middle-earth, but the Three were specifically made to resist this weariness, so why would you suggest that they would be ineffective? Is it not their whole purpose? Did they not bring rejuvenation, halt decay, and warded off evil? Sure, their making and purpose wasn't aligned to Iluvatar's plans, but they were rings of power. If it were not for Sauron's binding, the rings' demise would've been averted. Again, Galadriel herself stated that she wished the One had never been or remained forever lost (if this wish were of any avail in coming true). Someone as wise as she would know. This desire for the One to remain lost or non-existant indicates that Nenya (and we can safely assume Narya and Vilya as well) was doing its job just fine. To dwindle into a rustic folk of dell and cave... now why would she suggest this to Frodo only after the Three are shorn of their power? That's just it! The Three prevented fading and weariness. That's the whole purpose for their creation and they held the greatest powers in that area compared to the sixteen.

[Inziladun]

'Power' beyond one's native abilities is not generally well-considered in these works. Yes, the intentions of the makers of the Three, and those who wielded them, were good. Yes, they were somewhat successful in their desires to preserve the past. But, as you say, this was not in line with the doom, or fate intended for them. They used power that did not belong to them to make a semblance of deathlessness. And again, that was not natural to the state of things in Middle-earth: it was a hollow echo of the true immortality of the Undying Lands, and someone like Galadriel, who had experienced the real thing, would have perceived that. I don't think she ever intended for Lórien to be permanent. In fact, a section of the chapter devoted to her and Celeborn in UT says she advised that the Three should be hidden and never used, after the loss of the One. She longed to return to the West, but believed herself still in exile. She lived in a carefully constructed fantasy of the Undying Lands, hoping against hope she could one day return there. Her statement that she wished the One had remained lost can be explained by her having regret that the party had to end so soon, and in such a fashion: because it had been found, she knew that one way or the other she would finally lose all she had gained by the use of Nenya.
This has no textual basis I am aware of, but to me it would seem the ultimate cheat of Doom if any Elves living under the shadow of an artifact of power created by themselves would have been allowed to use it for eternity, or near it, and keep themselves in guarded 'museums' while Ilúvatar's plan for the return of the Elves to Valinor and the start of the Dominion of Men in Middle-earth took a back seat. Would that really have been possible?

[Findegil]

The problem of a "what if ..." discussion like this one lies in the fact that the reported events worked towards the doom predicted, while the questioner often tries to sigels out 1 event that he would change for the sack of discussion.

If the Three had been free from Saurons influence (the One never made, the One lost for ever, the Three not influenced by the distruction of the One) then the Doom of Mandos would have found other ways to remove the Three from Middle-Earth sooner or later.

By the way: I don't think that Galadriel is realy wishing for such things. She rather pionts out how ideel and useless such wishes against the fact of history are.

Mandos is not the maker of the fate he presages. He does only speak his knowledge about the future gained from the Music of the Ainur and the vision of Iluvatar. Thus for all but Men the Dooms of Mandos are unavoidable in the longrun.

Thus in the end, to have the Three operating freely, we have to ask what if the Doom of Mandos wouldn't have been like it was. But that change would have changed the whole story of Middle-Earth and is thus not very interresting i.m.o..

Respectfully
Findegil

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Her statement that she wished the One had remained lost can be explained by her having regret that the party had to end so soon, and in such a fashion: because it had been found, she knew that one way or the other she would finally lose all she had gained by the use of Nenya.

I don't understand what you meant by this, as you previously stated:

it [Lórien] was a hollow echo of the true immortality of the Undying Lands, and someone like Galadriel, who had experienced the real thing, would have perceived that.

What "party" was there or "gain" to be lost if Galadriel pereceived, as you said, all that she created with Nenya to be a hallow echo of the West? It just seems incosistent to me for her to regret creating everything with Nenya in the line of thought that it could never be as good as Valinor. I got the impression that she was quite satisfied with all the things she accomplished with Nenya and her very own version of Eressea in Middle-earth. So if her joy is diminished (when weilding Nenya & enhancing Lórien), why is she lamenting over its inevitable demise? It's contradictory if she's regretting it because all her endeavours pale in comparison to Valinor. Otherwise, why her deep love for Lórien if it was a half-assed Valinor? But if she regretted using Nenya and all that she wrought with with it because it must come to an end (being bound to One's power, her refusal of the One, and subsequent aiding of the fellowship), then that's more feasible.