Thrice shall pay for... what?

[Boromir88]

It could just be a literary red-herring (hmm...is that a term? ) used by Tolkien to justify the Eagles insertion into the story. Tolkien calls the Eagles "dangerous machines" that have to be used sparingly, because they are servants of Manwe, and having the Eagles constantly get Gandalf out of tough situations is cheap writing.

Maybe Tolkien just wrote an unexplained "debt" Gwaihir owed Gandalf, to somehow justify Gwaihir's timely appearances and rescues?

[Inziladun]

Another possibility came to mind, prompted by something I remembered Bilbo saying in The Hobbit.

The quote from ROTK that began this thread runs thus:

'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you're willing.'

When telling the Dwarves he was willing to go back down the tunnel to see if Smaug was gone, Bilbo said:

"'While there's life there's hope!' as my father used to say, and 'Third time pays for all!'"

The 'and' indicates the 'Third time' bit was another of Bungo's sayings. Might Gandalf not have been merely using a little phrase he picked up among those charming and absurd Hobbits, having no particular meaning behind it?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Might Gandalf not have been merely using a little phrase he picked up among those charming and absurd Hobbits, having no particular meaning behind it?

I suspect that this may well be the answer. 'Third time pays for all' is a proverbial saying, apparently dating from the 16th century. And we know how much Hobbits love their proverbs, saws and sayings! As I recall, Sam also refers to the phrase at some point, as one of the many that his old Gaffer used to say (perhaps that's where Bungo picked it up from).

Its meaning is seemingly similar to the phrases 'third time lucky' and 'third time's a charm', involving the concept that a third attempt is somehow likely to be more successful than previous attempts (possibly related to the idea of three as a lucky number). The 'pays for all' part, it seems, is intended to convey the idea that this third successful attempt will make up for the disappointment of earlier unsuccessful attempts.

How this relates to Gandalf's words to Gwaihir, I am not sure. Obviously, his earlier journies on the Great Eagle's back were not failures. His use of the phrase, though, suggests to me that he merely intended this to be the final of his journies with the Eagle. In other words, another way of saying 'This will be the last time I burden you, old friend'.

As for the possible contradiction between Gandalf's words and the number of times he may have been borne by Gwaihir, this may simply have been Gandalf misremembering, but I would think the most likely explanation is that Gwaihir (whether King or not) is not the same Eagle as the King of the Eagles that bore him in The Hobbit.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I suspect that this may well be the answer. 'Third time pays for all' is a proverbial saying, apparently dating from the 16th century. And we know how much Hobbits love their proverbs, saws and sayings! As I recall, Sam also refers to the phrase at some point, as one of the many that his old Gaffer used to say (perhaps that's where Bungo picked it up from).

Ah! You're right about Sam saying it at least once.

'Gollum!' he called softly. 'Third time pays for all. I want some herbs.'

That after Gollum had brought him the rabbits, then water in Ithilien.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'll grant that this does sound like a Hobbit bit of phraseology. Even so, Bilbo and Sam don't bother to mention the other previous instances that are being counted as a part of the third time; Gandalf does. It makes me think that something particular was in his mind. As for Tolkien's... well, perhaps he was thinking of Gwaihir as the Eagle King in TH? Heaven knows, it must have been tough to keep so many details perfectly straight in his own mind. Hmmm.... Maybe, if Gwaihir and the Eagle King are the same bird, then the instance in TH didn't count because it was a group rescue and not a personal favor for Gandalf alone...?

Still puzzling....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I'll grant that this does sound like a Hobbit bit of phraseology. Even so, Bilbo and Sam don't bother to mention the other previous instances that are being counted as a part of the third time; Gandalf does. It makes me think that something particular was in his mind.

Not to belabour the point, but Bilbo said it another time, before the previous quote I mentioned.

"If you mean you think it is my job to go into the secret passage first, O Thorin Thráin's son Oakenshield, may your beard grow ever longer," he said crossly, "say so at once and have done! I might refuse. I have got you out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that I am, I think, already owed some reward. But 'third time pays for all' as my father used to say, and somehow I don't think I shall refuse."

It's not proof by any means, but the recurrence of the phrase throughout the books pretty well convinces me it was just a throwaway remark on Gandalf's part, possibly having the dual meaning of a subtle 'Thank you and Good Night' to Gwaihir.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not to belabour the point, but Bilbo said it another time, before the previous quote I mentioned.

Okay, go ahead and belabor it. I forgot the entirety of that particular passage (as I haven't been consulting TH directly and admittedly don't know it as well as the other books. I read LotR when I was 11 and loved it. I kept trying to read TH and didn't manage to get through it until I was somewhere in my 20s. Different style of presentation, I suppose).

There does seem to be a certain "after this, I will ask nothing more of you" aspect to Gandalf's statement. And if one looks at Bilbo's statement, there appears to be an oddness to it, in that Bilbo owes the Dwarves nothing, they are in fact in his debt, and yet they are asking more of him. Which gives the phrase an almost "third strike and you're out" feel, saying that he will allow this much and no more. So perhaps it really is the nature of the phrase that bears the closer examination and not a debt that may not even exist. The point of confusion, in my muzzy brain at least, is no doubt the matter of the Eagle King who owed a genuine debt to Gandalf.

As I can get into etymology and semantics just as happily, I find that giving the exchange between Gwaihir and Gandalf more thought, Gandalf's addition of "if you are willing" would indicate that the phrase is being employed in the Hobbitish manner that Bilbo used. He is in Gwaihir's debt, and if Gwaihir is willing to do this final favor, he will ask no more of him, even though Gwaihir appears perfectly willing to do more, as he answers "I will bear you whither you would, though you were made of stone" (quoting from memory, here, please excuse any errors).

Okay, so it would seem that the Hobbits have a somewhat peculiar phrase that Gandalf adopted and applied to matters between himself and Gwaihir. I'll buy that. And I'll also buy the truth that no matter how many times you've read a beloved book, there are always things you miss.