Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I know some people are busy in the WW game...but it's night now, so maybe someone will have a chance in the next twenty-two hours and forty-minutes to post (yeah, I keep tabs). Maybe?

I've been work-loaded for more than is good to my health so I haven't basically been able to play the werewolf either. Going to work early in the morning and going non-stop to 10-11 PM... But it should ease up a little now as a new week starts.

Lommy, Legate?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I am here and I still have about six or something posts to read (ugh... it was some job to read it until now anyway), but that's already the training and all... I think I could post something after that (possibly, or maybe likely, I will get some inspiration when reading it... and that's something where Hilderinc definitely could figure...)

Anyway, a few notes to what's been discussed here before, even though I don't want to raise the matter again. I think it's good to have put the fuss around Groin's characters to rest and wait for his response, which I hope will come and I hope the situation could be solved in some good manner.

A few notes, though, to things I have noticed on the way:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can understand Athanar has some problematic characters around for the sake of storyline interests, like Aforglaed; he could be a son of a fellow lord or something, or a promising youth in arms even if a bit "teen" for his manners, or something like that. Also I think Athanar could stretch for Scyrr if he is an exceptionally good soldier - actually I don't see any other reason why he would have Scyrr among his ranks (he seems to be a kind of a guy lord Athanar would have gotten rid off in the first possible moment) - so beware anyone of you if you wish to try him with your character, he's going to beat you all as he still hangs around...

First, I feel the need to step in for Scyrr here. Now if you read the posts both for Áforglaed and Scyrr (excluding Groin's last post, which I will speak about more below), I don't think they are really bad. I think they are open to interpretation, and whenever posting for Scyrr (as it had been really mostly me who was doing it), I was keeping him in lines of something Nogrod said on this thread just after Scyrr has been posted for the first time: something like "He's either rude... or maybe he's just straightforward about his opinions." Scyrr, in my vision for him (which left still 90% of him as blank spaces) was only this: slightly self-centered, not willing to see others' point of view and convinced that he is always in the right, and that those who are with "him" are always in the right (cf. his words to Hilderinc when there was this initial brawl: when the case was hushed up, Scyrr felt that the newcomers have been wronged, as it WAS the local soldier who had started the fight - i.e. did strike first - and Scyrr in his self-centeredness was just overlooking the fact that the soldier had been provoked. But that's all, I don't think that's any trait that would make him strikingly obviously wicked. Scyrr is also apparently blunt in his opinions, but certainly would watch his tongue when talking to his superior. And even if he was prone to not doing it, he would have learned by now that he cannot do it face to Athanar, if nothing else).

Same goes for Áforglaed - funnily enough, he may be even "worse" than Scyrr - but then, he seems a bit more "cowardly" (i.e. avoiding escalating the conflict if he can), which would explain how he would get away with whatever troubles he might cause. He seemed willing to admit his fault and accept consequences, if it meant saving him from something worse. He would be probably too afraid to dare to do anything too bad in front of the lord (and anyway, he does not seem to do anything evil by himself - more like "accidentally", or just by not watching his tongue enough etc).

Originally Posted by Loslote

Seriously, though, a place in the retinue of a nobleman, particularly one as important as Lord Athanar, would be an enviable position. No one with anything less than excellent credentials or character. Really, Aforglaed is toeing the line as to acceptable soldiers - he would have to be the son of a close friend of Athanar's (or Wynflaed's, I suppose).

The same goes for this. Now just let me see if you are not misinterpretating the poor people a bit I mean, what is so horrible about Áforglaed, too? He is certainly not a shiny example, he is perhaps a bit more negative than positive character, but still - only from what he has done this far - is he really that bad? I think maybe some of you have formed a box called "baddies" in your heads and after the guys have been thrown in there once, it's easy to label them as total baddies and interpretate all their actions in the worst way, but hey, the way I see them at least, they are not THAT horrible... I mean, they are negative, but not so that they would necessarily make me wonder how comes Athanar put such terrible people in his service... they are, to me, just "average bad soldiers, of which kind there are dozens"...

So that would be it for the "Apology of the Unknown Soldier" part... Although if Nog especially you think that the folks look weird from Athanar's POV, I would like to hear that, as the point is of course his perspective... but you didn't seem to protest in the beginning (quite the opposite) and they seem to have not changed (unless counting Groin's incident). Now on to another issue...

And that is the soldier whom Erbrand fought with (possibly killed). First, one general thing, which you might have figured out already if you were reading the above. In Groin's post, the soldier he wounded or killed or whatever was called "Scyld". Everybody on this thread has been hereafter talking about him as "Scyld". Of course. But from all that has been said in Groin's post and then also on this thread, I think he just meant Scyrr. Scyld is some soldier from the original Mead Hall, originally Firefoot's character, if I am not mistaken. Scyrr is this "bad" NPC guy of Athanar's household. Given that Erbrand said "I killed one of Athanar's soldiers", I assume Groin meant Scyrr, not Scyld.

That's just so to clear things up. Speaking of this, I would add a general reminder, as I have been thinking about something like that also a long time ago already. Whenever you are writing for somebody and you are not 100% sure about his identity, go and check the first page of the discussion thread. Most of the characters are described there (speaking of which maybe I, or somebody, could indeed make a bio also for these Áforglaeds and co. In any case, Scyld's bio is there if nothing else, so it should've been clear that he is not Scyrr).

And to the thing that has been asked here:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think it all depends on whether Groin wishes to continue writing this and then wants to take something back

Indeed I simply think we should go with that, like I said, and wait a while for Groin.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Actually I think now that if he doesn't wish to come back we should at least try to think how we could deal with it and not bother Pio. We can take the post as his last challenge for us to overcome together.

And what a challenge would it be! A murder and a get-away! Erbrand and Lithor would be declared outlaws by king Eomer for manslaughter - and making peace with the two groups would be much harder (it wasn't looking hard already?) as lord Athanar and those coming with him would now think the "original MeadHallers" as murderers... for a reason.

(...)

I can say readily that Stigend (and probably Garstan as well) would be appalled and reconsider what they thought of Erbrand... and looking at how Lithor behaved... also him. They had honoured them both but would now... well, reconsider to say the least.

How about the character's of you others?

(...)

Heh, a funny idea... is there a thing that brings people together better than a common enemy? No there isn't.

So could Erbrand and Lithor (and Scyld) work as scapegoats to all the possible rivalries thus uniting the people? It would of course not be as easy or straightforwards as that, but in the end that might be actually believable...

What do you think?

Well, not that it didn't occur to me when I read it, a swift party sent to pursuit of the two fellows, but then, I think it's a bit over the top. From my part, I would rather want to avoid that. Just lay it to rest. Although there will be simply this "legend of two deserters" and now that would probably really just contribute to differenciating opinions (if I sort of exaggerate it, the worst two extremes would be "You old-Scarburgians are murderers and deserters!" and "Erbrand and Lithor were an example of honourable resistance against oppression! To arms!"). If Groin does not come back or make some changes there, I would prefer some other solution. But I would like him to come back, firstly.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Maybe, but I think there's enough doubt in it that we can say Erbrand thought he was dead, but he turned out not to be. If I were one of the two women, I would not bring back the dead body of a full grown man. That would be tough, plus gross.

And indeed. In the question "so is the guy dead or not", I would think he is not: it seems like that from Groin's account, and by all logic - the women would not carry him in, but ran in yelling "there is a dead soldier" if he was in really bad condition. They'd even call for help probably if he was very badly wounded, but since there are two women bringing him back, it implies actually that he is able to almost walk, so actually his state won't be even that bad, I think.

But anyway all in all, this whole scenario with two people attacking each other like that seems a bit over the top to me from the beginning.

[Thinlómien]

Hello darlings, I'm finally back - sorry about deserting you all for such a long time. But I'm going to post today, at least for W&W (they are definitely not happy!) and hopefully for Modtryth too, although there's less to say about her and I'm not sure if I have the energy to make something up.

As for all that's been happening, well, I can't say much, but I have to say all the drama is to my liking. So why not keep it? If it's not a murder, if it's just a bloody brawl and the ladies testify that both men were intent on killing each other, then I think it's ok.

[Thinlómien]

I wrote for the guys. Sorry, it's a novel, but I had no idea how angry they were until I started writing...

But I guess that will suffice for now, and I hope it will make people see their point of view too. They are not truly "baddies" any more than Scyrr or Aforglaed - or Erbrand or Rowenna!

I will write for Modtryth and/or Cnebba someday soon too.

Also I just realised we need to know whether Lithor is there or not when Wulfric and Wilheard's punishment is to be executed. Or what will happen if he is not there...

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I've been work-loaded for more than is good to my health so I haven't basically been able to play the werewolf either. Going to work early in the morning and going non-stop to 10-11 PM... But it should ease up a little now as a new week starts.

Ooh, Nogrod, sounds miserable. Hope your work load lightens soon!

Legate...I kind of mostly read your post. I've had a long day, so didn't quite read in depth. I think I agree with what you said about the NPCs - they weren't ALL bad and maybe a little misunderstood.

I honestly don't think Groin will respond. I think he's gone...if not for good, then at least for a long time.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I wrote for the guys. Sorry, it's a novel, but I had no idea how angry they were until I started writing...

Don't apologize! I'm thrilled you posted at such length! It was great. This certainly thickens the plot, doesn't it. Two fellows who think they're father is mad and who plan to oust Saeryn out as soon as his madness disposes of him...oooooh bad. And they don't like her. A whining peasant? Heh. Your characters have a way of getting under my skin when they speak or think about Saeryn.

Good post!

-- Foley

[Loslote]

That was excellent, Lommy! I would rep you, but it won't let me yet.

[Gwathagor]

I wanted to post today, but I don't have the creative energy. Hopefully tomorrow!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Loslote

That was excellent, Lommy! I would rep you, but it won't let me yet.

Well I hoped to rep many people for what they've written during the time I was away but I was unable too...

Fea, hope your life gets less chaotic!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Ooh, Nogrod, sounds miserable. Hope your work load lightens soon!

It will... Already today I will have the whole evening free - well within limits (there are a hundred things to do but none is necessary exactly today...)

I honestly don't think Groin will respond. I think he's gone...if not for good, then at least for a long time.

Well he actually responded. I have just read his PM. There seems to have been a host of reasons for him leaving and he sounds happy to have chosen to live more in the RL instead of hanging in the 'Downs.

I appreaciated his frank and open PM and think it is now settled, and he's gone for good. He wished we would leave his posts as they are and I'm inclined to grant that to him. Unless anyone comes up with a major issue that we couldn't settle because of them.

Also, if he wishes one day to come back to the 'Downs and start writing an RPG I'd wish him warmly welcome with new characters - or maybe bringing the two back again?



So Erbrand and Lithor have left the building... erm... the Mead Hall.

And Scyrr is not dead (it's just what Erbrand thought he was).

[Nogrod]

Thanks for reminding us about the characters of Aforglaed and Scyrr, Legate! I think many of us forgot a host of things in the thick of things running amok back there - at least I did.

But now I think it's up to you Legate to decide - as you have been the main writer for Scyrr - whether his actions in Groin's last post were ones he would take.

If they are out of bounds for Scyrr, we can probably change some things with Pio's help without totally deleting the post. If you come up with a reason why they would fight, then great (we can then just change a few lines from their speeches). If there is none, then we'll have to edit a bit more to make Erbrand and Lithor run away without Erbrand beliving he killed someone. I think both things are doable.

Originally Posted by Legate

if Nog especially you think that the folks look weird from Athanar's POV, I would like to hear that, as the point is of course his perspective... but you didn't seem to protest in the beginning (quite the opposite) and they seem to have not changed (unless counting Groin's incident)

There's no problem if there are one or two problematic characters - well whatever from the list of: dislikeable, hot-headed, brutal, proud, non-considerate, prejudiced, rude, idiot, aggressive, self-centered, warmonger, villaneous, vile, brutal... whatever. As you said there probably have been a host of that kind of guys in the military through ages (and I'm not saying Aforglaed or Scyrr would be especially bad). But at some point it seemed that all the characters who were written belonging to lord Athanar's retinue were that kind of guys - while of course all the old Scarburgians were the "good guys". Well Groin had a lot to do with that impression building up. So it was starting to feel that enough is enough.

The feeling I was getting at one time was that lord Athanar was surrounded by a mob of scroundels. And that would not do. Even if some (many) of our characters in the Mead Hall would dislike the newcomers to begin with (which they really should do), that doesn't mean the writers of the Mead Hall should start painting lord Athanar's retinue as a bunch of villains. They're still eorlinga, probably more like from the "better end" of them.

Now happily Foley has taken this new character Quin who's already a different character.


I do agree with you Legate that there should be no major "hunting-party" to go after Lithor and Erbrand - especially as Scyrr is still alive and not probably even so badly hurt. I think people of the Mead Hall would be informed that the two had left - and it will be interesting to hear how different characters will react to that. In due time - like the next time there is a courier to pass messages between the MH and Edoras - lord Athanar will inform king Eomer about a deserter soldier and that's it - I think. Erbrand sure is free to go, and beating someone up probably isn't a crime that would lead into major search-parties in the ME, but a soldier leaving his duty might warrant some notification - not that he would be actively searched for but if met somewhere he would be brought to face justice for deserting his post.

That's how I would see it - and hopefully / probably we need not bother with those issues if and when Lithor and Erbrand just are away.