Thorondor as a Maia???

[Galin]

Part of the problem might be that certain relevant texts are hard to date, at least in relation to each other:

'Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim...' Note to the typescript, Annals of Aman

'... many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)' Note on the page for Myths Transformed, text V

'Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar -- emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.' Myths Transformed text VIII

These appear to hail from the late 1950s


I have a further question concerning text VIII in any case: immediately after noting the problem of the descendants of Thorondor, Tolkien asks if Maiar can become Orcs, answers yes, and then notes: '... but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.'

But does this not imply that Maiar could have descendants? If these spirits accept permanent incarnation as Eagles, it seems to me that Gwaehir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor should not necessarily prohibit the idea of Thorondor being a Maia -- though I certainly agree he should procreate with a female Maia as an eagle, as opposed to a regular eagle.

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I realize this was very much a record of 'thinking with the pen', but I'm wondering if others share my confusion here -- or if I'm off the path myself, creating my own confusion rather.

_______________

The Osanwe-kenta (c 1959-60) states: 'The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.' Author's note 5, where Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar.

This singles Melian out, but not being published (which caused Tolkien's 'unfortunately' above in text VIII with respect to Thorondor), to my mind this would still not necessarily prohibit the notion of the eagles as Maiar, if desired.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I don't think the Eagles of the First Age being incarnate Maia would preclude their procreating.
It seems likely to me that Shelob, as 'the last child of Ungoliant' was the product of such procreation.

The Eldar knew not whence [Ungoliant] came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

Silmarillion Of the Darkening of Valinor

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?

It would certainly seem to follow that if Melian could have a child with an Elf by embodying herself as an Elf, then Maiar embodied as Eagles or Spiders or whatever could do the same, with creatures of the same kind as their embodiment. I would think that Tolkien wanted to avoid the possibility of interbreeding causing such oddities as a minotaur, gryphon, etc., creatures that crossed species. And by stating that the act of procreation in particular would bind their spirit -- their very being -- to physicality and thus diminish their power should they lose that body, it makes the prospect less appealing and thus less likely to happen over and over. Makes the rare times it does happen considerably more unique and special.

Still, Tolkien had a lot of ideas about the nature of the Ainur that changed over the years. As I recall, the Maiar were originally the Valarindi, the children of the Valar, and he dropped that notion over time.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

(...) Still, Tolkien had a lot of ideas about the nature of the Ainur that changed over the years. As I recall, the Maiar were originally the Valarindi, the children of the Valar, and he dropped that notion over time.

Generally speaking, the 'lesser' or 'following spirits' (literary precursors of the later Maiar) appear to have been distinct from the Children of the Valar even in the Lost Tales. For example Fionwe is the son of Manwe and Varda in the Lost Tales, but with Manwe and Varda came 'many of those lesser Vali who loved them' and these are the Manir and Suruli, the sylphs of the airs and winds (keeping in mind that in The Book of Lost Tales the term Valar did not refer to 'power' as in later conceptions).

In later texts the Children of the Valar were said to be 'accounted' among the Maiar, for instance, yet they were distinct by simply being the offspring of the Valar. At some points the Children of the Gods appear to be 'many'. A post-Lord of the Rings text, The Annals of Aman, helps show the distinction: '... and the Maiar and the Sons of the Valar were arrayed as for war.' (section 6), and...

'And with them [the Maiar] are numbered also the Valarindi, the offspring of the Valar, their children begotten in Arda, yet of the race of the Ainur who were before the world; they are many and fair.' Annals of Aman (section 1)