sauron winning?

[Joseph]

Wow thanks for all your detailed answers to my questions I had forgotten about just how strong Melkor was thank god (as many elves and men i`m sure did) that the Valar won and he was cast out into the void.
I suppose that maybe Ilúvatar could have directly intervened with Sauron had he won maybe?
I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?
Thanks once again for all your help with the answers to the questions I have pitchwife Mnemosyne and Legate of Amon Lanc.
Regards
Joseph

[Faramir Jones]

Welcome to the Downs, Joseph!

You asked a very interesting question here:

Originally Posted by Joseph

I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?

Tolkien had this to say about the end of the world in Quenta Silmarillion:

31. Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
32. Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien and she will break them, and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.(The History of Middle-earth: V. The Lost Road, p. 333.)

I remember grinning when I first read this, at the fact that Túrin and his family will have their revenge.

[Inziladun]

That's from the Second Prophecy of Mandos in HOME, isn't it Faramir? Fascinating, indeed, and I also like the idea of Túrin dealing Morgoth his death blow However, Túrin might have a problem.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

However, Túrin might have a problem.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

I don't think there's a problem. By comparison with a Man being brought back from the dead, fixing a sword is easy.

[Andsigil]

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!



Okay, so depending on your opinion of Bombadil that may have made things worse, but a girl's gotta try.

In all seriousness I have to reject this statement because it doesn't take into account the general decline of things that's supposed to happen in the transition from the Elder Days to the Middle to these the Youngest--namely, everything is supposed to get lamer. Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yes, Sauron may still be floating around as a disempowered spirit, but he can't be everywhere at once, and the little power that Tolkien attributes him when asked about this sort of thing isn't nearly enough to account for all the evil in the world. By the Third Age, even, evil is not as monolithic as it once was (if it ever was monolithic in Tolkien: cf. the ambiguity surrounding Ungoliant)--Saruman is not so much corrupted by Sauron as by his own ambition (if you think he was, you've been watching too much Jackson), and then we've got the blackened heart of Old Man Willow and the petty characters like Ted Sandyman and Lotho Baggins. If you want to point to Morgoth as the source of all of this, since he essentially sang evil into the world, I'll buy that--but not Sauron.

Fast forward to today, where evil is not hooded, cloaked, and riding on black horses, but micromanaged at the bureaucrat's desk or carelessly pursued by the young rake or unwittingly accepted by the decent gal who just doesn't have the time to help out right now. The difference between the Elder Days and the Younger is that our struggles are not as epic--but they're still important, possibly more so because we never know whence the next attack will come. The important thing is that if we acknowledge this kind of struggle as going on today, we have to acknowledge also the pure Joy that emanates from Tolkien--even in the bleakest moments of the Silmarillion we get the beauty of Beren and Luthien and the hope of Earendil's rising--made still more wondrous by the contrast of all the darkness that surrounds them--and find the ways that they, too, resonate in our world.

They cannot conquer for ever!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!

Quite funny and genre appropriate.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

...Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

You're right about Sauron's army. I don't even believe the force he put up at the Morannon would make much of a dent against Ar-Pharazon's Numenorean army -- you know, the Numenoreans that made Sauron's legions run away like frightened rabbits.

In any case, the thing everyone seems to be missing is that the Valar would not or could not have sent an army if Sauron was victorious at the end of the 3rd Age. After Eru destroyed Numenor and caused the reshaping of the world, there was an obvious prohibition on the Valar offering such overt assistance to Middle-earth; which is why the Istari were sent to aid the Free Peoples rather than Eonwe and a heavenly host.

It seems to me that there would be no further divine armies descending upon the world until Tolkien's version of Ragnarök.

P.S. It seems I can't add to your reputation, Mnemo, as I am required to spread the love around. I really despise the way reputation works. What if there are only a few intelligent posters and everyone else sucks? Not that that is the case here, of course. ;p

[deagol]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!



Okay, so depending on your opinion of Bombadil that may have made things worse, but a girl's gotta try.

In all seriousness I have to reject this statement because it doesn't take into account the general decline of things that's supposed to happen in the transition from the Elder Days to the Middle to these the Youngest--namely, everything is supposed to get lamer. Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yes, Sauron may still be floating around as a disempowered spirit, but he can't be everywhere at once, and the little power that Tolkien attributes him when asked about this sort of thing isn't nearly enough to account for all the evil in the world. By the Third Age, even, evil is not as monolithic as it once was (if it ever was monolithic in Tolkien: cf. the ambiguity surrounding Ungoliant)--Saruman is not so much corrupted by Sauron as by his own ambition (if you think he was, you've been watching too much Jackson), and then we've got the blackened heart of Old Man Willow and the petty characters like Ted Sandyman and Lotho Baggins. If you want to point to Morgoth as the source of all of this, since he essentially sang evil into the world, I'll buy that--but not Sauron.

Fast forward to today, where evil is not hooded, cloaked, and riding on black horses, but micromanaged at the bureaucrat's desk or carelessly pursued by the young rake or unwittingly accepted by the decent gal who just doesn't have the time to help out right now. The difference between the Elder Days and the Younger is that our struggles are not as epic--but they're still important, possibly more so because we never know whence the next attack will come. The important thing is that if we acknowledge this kind of struggle as going on today, we have to acknowledge also the pure Joy that emanates from Tolkien--even in the bleakest moments of the Silmarillion we get the beauty of Beren and Luthien and the hope of Earendil's rising--made still more wondrous by the contrast of all the darkness that surrounds them--and find the ways that they, too, resonate in our world.

They cannot conquer for ever!

After reading this I couldn't help but wonder if the unmaking of the Ring didn't, in fact, destroy the evil that had gone into its making but merely dispersed it into wider-ranging but less powerful (or epic) strains. Even as Sauron is rendered powerless, still, he is not got rid of. Even in fantasy, it is not possible to eradicate evil, it seems. It's totally unrelated, but I got a very clear image of the denoument in Terry Gilliam's Time Bandits reading this: where concentrated evil is blasted into into tiny bits and the Supreme Being's diminutive henchmen miss a piece when they're sweeping up. Over and over again, the message seems to be that no amount of good is sufficient to trump all the evil in the world.

More's the pity.