Werewolf LXXII: Now There's the Truth of It! (Game Thread)

[Nienna]

I think Nog is right about the amount of cooperation it is going to take to lynch the wolves in this game. This worries me a little just because trying to get this many people to cooperate when there aren't evil ones in the midst would be a pain. We need to focus and make very conscious decisions about who to vote for. We need to look at everyone including the people who are quiet or who haven't even posted at all. We need to make sure that the votes are spread (I never thought I'd hear myself say that!). There is going to be a lot of confusion at Day's end even with the cautions against it. It is inevitable. It will be much too easy to get someone not-killed by both the innocent and the guilty alike.

We also need to think clearly about who we want as Simon though not necessarily use all our votes for people we think would make good Simons as we need to also vote for people we just don't want to die.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, nobody's going to vote for a dreamed wolf this game. So it would be a matter of arranging it so that everyone else got at least one vote. Anyone trying to sabotage that would look pretty furry. However, if things were left too late, it might be possible for the wolves to "accidentally" vote the wrong people, and then blame it on the last-minute rush. Thus, the Seer would need to reveal fairly early in the Day.

Hopefully a Seer-reveal will be entirely unnecessary. But if someone did vote for a wolf obtained from a Seer dream, they'd be in the hot seat, no matter their excuse.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I don't like is our chance of getting an un-dreamed wolf in the early part of the game.

Well, it's about the same odds as usual, isn't it? It is going to take a bit more heads up thinking though to spread out the votes wisely, along the lines of what Nog said.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

As for all this Day/Night confusion that happened at the beginning, I don't think it really says anything of anyone's roles. A wolf could just as easily make that mistake as an ordo. Perhaps if there were no PM exchanges between the wolves yet, one (or more) simply assumed the Day had already begun. I don't know if a wolf would pretend to post ignorantly to make them look better. It's against the rules to post during a Night phase, and while it's one thing if it's just an honest mistake, I think it'd be rather unsporty to post knowing you're not supposed to just so you can fake ignorance and look better once the Day actually begins.

This makes sense. If the wolves were PMing it follows they should have been clear it was Night, and no posting was allowed. But who knows that but they?
Sally said in the opening post:

The first round of eliminations will commence at 3 a.m. GMT tomorrow. Best of luck to all!

Saying 'eliminations' would begin about 24 hours from that time led me to believe that was when Day would begin. Since every game I've been in has had a Night phase first, I took it that this was no different. Izzy said that some games have begun with Day, though. So I still don't know that the 'illegal' posters can necessarily be classified one way or the other.

[Nogrod]

First I thought I would just ignore that false-start, but now reading your comments and thinking of it again, I'm beginning to think it might be actually quite good to hear from everyone there why was it they posted.

Also, there is a major difference I think between Form who started and Mira, Nerwen & Eönwë who followed.

But let's not speculate on the possible reasons before they have a chance to answer themselves. If there is lycantrophy involved I wouldn't like to give a wolf an argument...

Originally Posted by Nienna

We need to look at everyone including the people who are quiet or who haven't even posted at all.

What I said... if we have fex. four quiet people who don't take part in the discussion we just need to differentiate between them as not to affect a no-lynch! How to do that?

So please post people!

Originally Posted by Nienna

There is going to be a lot of confusion at Day's end even with the cautions against it. It is inevitable.

Exactly. That's why I said everyone should read the thread and know the situation before voting. This is indeed a different game and the whole dynamic is different.

So please read people!

[Nogrod]

Okay. We're going to have some fun here as Lommy & Greenie are at my place, but I will come back when they go to sleep.


Just a few thoughts on people on the fly.

If I had to vote now, I'd probably vote for Brinn, Nienna and Nerwen for their reasonable points. Inzil might take my last vote.

With Lottie I'm a bit insecure. She has been very active and provided things to think about - so therefore I'd wish to see her continue the game. But it just struck me that if she is a wolf (and was thus perfectly aware of the fact that the people posting there were mistaken) it would have been relatively good idea for her to make a public note of it! I don't know, I'm pretty good at getting her wrong as well.

But happily it's still early on the Day and hopefully more people will join the discussion so that it would be easier to form opinions on you.


Btw. concerning the votes. It would be quite reasonable for everyone to use all their votes toDay so that the possibility of there remaining four people without votes would be smaller. And of course those voting late should take care nothing like that happens...

I'll be back in a few hours.

[satansaloser2005]

I don't care either way but for both Alona's sanity (bless her!) and that of all you lot you could probably highlight your votes. Just sayin'.



Oh, and nice parody, Lottie!

[the phantom]

I think it's laughable that you all have put your names down for a "Most Popular Downer" competition. If you were truly impressive and notable, the very idea of competing for approval from the masses would cause you to become physically ill.

Ah, but perhaps I'm being too hasty in writing you off immediately. Everyone must start somewhere... I suppose it's possible that there is one of you who does have what it takes but simply has not gained the necessary wisdom and attitude to be one of the elite. If you truly believe you are destined for great things, you had better pay attention during this little adventure. You can learn much.

I'll check in on you all later, but for now, I'll leave with you four points.

1) Very bad form coming in early like that, Form. One of the most important traits of a great Downer is timing. There is a time for seriousness, a time for flirting, a time for joking, as well as the often ignored time for silence. There are instances when posting before/after a deadline is actually the right thing to do in the grand scheme of things, but not at the very start.

2) And then there's Mira, Nerwen, and Steve. You three are guilty of speaking out of turn as well, but your mistake is worse than Form's, as you not only displayed bad timing, but herd mentality as well. The great do not follow!

3) And to Loslote- don't be an insufferable rule-kissing nag. While it may have been wrong for the others to speak when they did, it is an even worse crime to assume laws and rules are always right and should always be followed strictly. Those who are overly eager to chide others for rule-breaking usually have that sort of mindset- the absolute wrong mindset for achieving greatness. You should be looking for opportunities to take advantage of rule-breaking yourself rather than policing others.

4) Barely even one page of posting and half the day gone... Pitiful! I could have posted that much all by myself.

[Pitchwife]

Ah, the Heckler has spoken! I was beginning to wonder when we would hear from him...

Just noticed something - in the narration, last Night was referred to as Night 0, which implies that toDay is Day 0, not Day 1. Any ideas what that means?

About strategy - Nog has made some good points about spreading the votes etc., but I'd like to note that the regular approach of keeping the people who're active and contributing is a little more problematic in this game than usual. It's one thing to not quite lynch them yet, but it's quite another to run the risk that an active and reasonable-looking wolf may be elected to the Simony (or whatever it should be properly called), giving them power to mess with our votes on the next Day. Unfortunately, I don't yet see how to minimize that risk. Suggestions?

(x-ed with Stevonwë, who also comments on the Day 0 thing)

EDIT: also x-ed with Form and another Stevonwë)

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ah, the Heckler has spoken! I was beginning to wonder when we would hear from him...

Just noticed something - in the narration, last Night was referred to as Night 0, which implies that toDay is Day 0, not Day 1. Any ideas what that means

It means the moddess is silly and likes to start at 0 rather than 1, that's all. ToDay is Day 1.



And yes, the Phantom has spoken. ^_^

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

It means the moddess is silly and likes to start at 0 rather than 1, that's all. ToDay is Day 1.

I'm disappointed.
In fact, this game has been unnervingly sane up to now. You do realize you've got a reputation to live up to, don't you?

Speaking of sanity...

Originally Posted by Eönwë

On the other hand, this new way of playing means that there will be less of a difference between the way that ordos and wolves post, because everyone will be thinking the way a wolf does, and so will try to get the confidence of the village as much as possible. It also means that people will be less likely to do crazy posts that leave everyone confused, because less people will be likely to vote for that sort of person past Day 1. In other words, being confusing and unhelpful is probably much more risky in this game, meaning that ordos will act more like wolves try to, and the wolves will probably try harder to look useful.

So maybe we should actually vote for the crazy and confusing people?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

About strategy - Nog has made some good points about spreading the votes etc., but I'd like to note that the regular approach of keeping the people who're active and contributing is a little more problematic in this game than usual. It's one thing to not quite lynch them yet, but it's quite another to run the risk that an active and reasonable-looking wolf may be elected to the Simony (or whatever it should be properly called), giving them power to mess with our votes on the next Day. Unfortunately, I don't yet see how to minimize that risk. Suggestions?

Electing a wolf as Simon won't be good but I also don't think it would be tragic... at least not at this stage of the game. We need to use our votes to pick someone who would be reasonable as Simon but we also need to make sure we use our votes to lynch someone. That is how we will get rid of wolves. That is how we will win.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So maybe we should actually vote for the crazy and confusing people?

Well, as an ordo you have less to lose if you die than if you are a wolf, so maybe, unless it's a very confident wolf. Of course, the person you are voting might just be crazy and confusing anyway, so I don't really think that'll work.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Electing a wolf as Simon won't be good but I also don't think it would be tragic... at least not at this stage of the game.

True... early on two votes can easily be overruled, but the further the game goes, the more power the Simon will have.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Just noticed something - in the narration, last Night was referred to as Night 0, which implies that toDay is Day 0, not Day 1. Any ideas what that means?

Bet it means nothing. Or, rather, that it means that on Night 0, nothing happens but ModDeath, after which Day 1 starts (things happen) followed by Night 1 (things happen).

Originally Posted by Sally

It means the moddess is silly and likes to start at 0 rather than 1, that's all. ToDay is Day 1.

Sawwee!!! How'm I supposed to respond to things systematically as I read if you responded before I got home but after I tried to respond?

Originally Posted by Vanilwa

Ok, so the Night posters totally mixed me up yesterday when I saw people posting, cause I had it written in my day planner that yesterday was a Night phase (yes, I keep track of WW stuff in my dayplanner ).

I freaking love you for keeping WW in your dayplanner. Just sayin'. Not least because I had to schedule it in myself, what with my crazy life. (Brief explanation of: I meant to be around at midDay but got stuck out of town running errands and by the time I got home I had to sprint out the door to get to work on time and only just got onto the 'Downs).

Originally Posted by Izzy

It looks like it was a general mistaken error, and I agree with those whom have said - I doubt someone would knowingly post during the Night, just to make themselves look better.

I concur. While it's plausible that some enterprising individual might try to meta-manipulate like that, the odds of it having any functional and predictable benefit aren't really good enough to warrant bothering. I mean... what are the odds that posting at night is going to convince people you're not evil? It's just trash logic and would be a kinda useless waste of time and energy.

Originally Posted by Gwath

There goes my usual strategy of saying as little as possible. It will be interesting to see how this affects folks' playing styles, since it behooves us all, to some extent, to TRY to attract attention.

Psh... just ask the Bostonmooters: I attract attention even when sick and sleeping. Posting? As if posting was necessary for one such as me! No, but seriously, there's something interesting about the psychology behind trying to avoid being the least favorite and actively striving to be the most loved. Frankly, every time I play werewolf I wish I was studying it as social psych. Because the question comes down to how much you think somebody is willing to alter their normal state in order to accrue popularity. Ie: how much are any of the players here willing to change themselves in order to please others?

Me? Even if I had the time and energy to pretend like I care about being popular, I wouldn't. Because it would almost certainly be detrimental to me to try to attract attention, since urban legend suggests that I'm only vocal when I'm evil. Ergo, I'm playing how I feel like playing based on my schedule and my whim (and Sally's whim), and the rest of you will just have to deal.

Originally Posted by Nog

I just don't see the point of this objection. It looks like you'd wish us not to talk of whom we actually suspect so as to let the wolves skip freely in the shadows? It's the point of the game-mechanics that we vote for confidence, but our goal nevertheless is getting the wolves lynched. Or do you have a different goal?

I view it as drawing negative space. With voting for who you want to kill, you're drawing the subject of the picture. You're making it obvious.

But when you vote for who you want to keep alive, you're filling in your background. The silhouette you reveal is the identity of the person who is least trusted.

In short, I find this argument silly, since regardless of whether you vote for favorite or least favorite, you're still eventually going to have an Undesirable die at the hands of the village.

It's just more like death by negligence instead of death by pitchfork. Just think of us leaving a poor little villager out in the cold while the rest of us party, and coming out in the morning to find them frozen in the snow.

Originally Posted by phantom

And I still can't believe no one has suggested something interesting, such as- "On Day 2, why don't we all agree to dump three of our four votes immediately on a non-player (e.g. Shasta) and then we'll all have only one single vote with which to save someone from then on. It will make votes more meaningful and make things more tense and encourage bargaining and make lists and such much shorter and easier to keep track of etc etc..."

Because I haven't been home until now! I vote for this idea. Then again, last time I tried to convince a group to control votes and kill a known wolf with them, they managed to kill me instead. So frankly, my faith in group think is negligible. No offense to you all as individuals, but it's a proven fact that groups of people are stupid.

What we need here is a benevolent dictator. We shouldn't be voting anybody into Simon, Simon should seize control!

Veni, vidi, vici!

[alonariel]

Just got off work (and am apparently back from the dead!). Here goes, let me know if there are any mistakes!

Brinn - 2
Dun - 7
Fea - 2
Form - 2
Glirdan - 5
Gwath - 4
Izzy - 3
Lottie - 9
Mira - 5
Nerwen - 10
Nienna - 8
Nog - 13
Pitch - 5
Rune - 2
Steve - 13
Wilwa - 2

[Eönwë]

Ok, well these two seem innocent to me right now:

++Brinn
++Wilwa

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Wilwa (#119) votes Zil and Nienna but "will probably not (but might be persuaded to) vote Formy, Nerwen, Mira, or Gwath".

nope nope:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Ok, gonna do this now thens:

++Glirdan

Cause I don't want the poor kid getting lynched Day 1 again.

++Fea

Cause all she's said was 1 word and I don't want a submarine type to get lynched just for lack of posts.

++Nog

Cause I feel good about him.

and then I later voted for Lottie aswell. You must have me mixed up with someone else.



So I am here. I'm going to just let you all know now that I am beyond exhausted. My cat Beau has this weird respitory infection and he slept with me last night like always and I basically didn't sleep cause I was so paranoid that he'd stop breathing on me. Probably the most dreadful sounds I have ever heard coming out of a living thing. So I don't have much to do today at all (no animal clinics open til tomorrow anyway, so dumb) so I'll be here quite a bit, but I am really tired and kind of distracted by him. So if I don't make any sense at some point or mix up names or some sort of such nonsense, that's why.

I'm going to go read through today again so I can come up with something coherent. Good job Nienna!

[Pitchwife]

What, no 10 pages yet? And very little banter, actually. There's still hope...
Concerning the question of pre-Day posting, I was a little confused myself by this:

Originally Posted by sally on Admin thread

Also, I won't be here for DL 'cause I have church, but I'll put up the narration straightaway when I get back so as soon as it hits 3 a.m. GMT (in eight hours) feel free to chat it up or do whatever. Enjoy!

(Underlining mine)
"Chat it up" must have referred to the wolves' PMing, but at the time it looked to me like we were starting with a Day phase. There have been precedents, and considering who's modding this, I think there's precious little we can take for granted.
Of course it's entirely possible that there's a wolf among the pre-Day posters, but the pre-Day posting per se is no evidence of lupinity. On the other hand, grabbing a straw like that and blowing it up into a suspicion could be exactly that. (Wait, how do you blow up a straw? I need to be more careful with my metaphors...) On the gripping hand* (mutants of the world unite!), the discussion had to be started somehow...
More to follow.

*Nerwen, ever read The Mote in God's Eye?

[Glirdan]

Hey all, I'm here but pretty much just to vote as I have some things I have to do and won't be around for the DL.

However, I will be addressing somethings

Originally Posted by Brin

Oh and Glirdan, did they really lynch you on Day 1 last game? I remember there were a few who joked about lynching you Day 1, but I didn't think they'd actually do it. Meanies.

Yes, yes they did...the jerks.

Originally Posted by Brin

I'd imagine spreading out our votes would be the smarter thing to do. If several players make all four votes at once at the end of the Day, that could lead to disaster.

And yet sometimes it is unavoidable...like in my case currently as I will probably be making my votes within the next hour.

And speaking of votes, I will make one right now for:

++Nogrod

He has been quite helpful from everything that I've read thus far. Clear, concise, logical thoughts.

I really wish I had more time to vote and read ( ), but I will be leaving quite soon and actually have company at the moment. I will be back on (well I hope to anyways) before I have to leave to vote at least once more.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And speaking of votes, I will make one right now for:

++Nogrod

Needs to be highlighted, Glirdy.

[Nogrod]

Possible votes of confidence

Brinn – spoke sense early on the Day but hasn’t appeared after that. Could be perfect wolvery or just RL busyness… I’d hate to see her gone because of that especially as I have no possibility to see what she might do during the last hours.

Dun – Seems to be sensical and bold enough to take sides on some issues. Good for me.

Gwath – speaks sense indeed. He would be a terribly effective wolf or then an ordo. I’m leaning on the latter for D1.

Nerwen – mainly to the point and anyway too valuable to lose on D1…

Nienna – Seems collected and to the point. I like her posting, it feels well-intended and is reasoned.

I can't vote all five, but my four votes will most probably go for four of them.

As I said, we better use all our votes - hey Glirdan, use them all! The more votes we have cast the lesser the risk that we do not manage to lynch anyone.



The less trusted ones... but not actually suspicious enough I'd like to see them lynched.

Fea – one post total, saying “Marco?” C'mon Fea!

Form – the first poster, leaning towards innocent thus far (although looking at the scope of the explanation it looks a bit overdone).

Glirdan – kind of perfect wolf-strategy: being there but not much said to stir controversy. Looking at his “comeback” ending up in early deaths I’d hate to see him gone on D1 though.

Lottie – she’s a problem for me. The intervention back there on the wrong start is not thoroughly innocent-looking as it would be such a nice idea for a wolf to do but then again I have nothing else on her so it might be just pure “what if”?

Rune – more or less the same as with Glirdan… I’d hate to see him gone with that little to be said on him – even if that would be the best wolf tactics in this game.

Wilwa – she’s had not much time so far I can see, but soo reasonable and careful! If I hadn’t promised I’ll not suspect her firsthand I’d suspect her, but now I think I’ll just have to leave it at that.



The ones I do suspect more or less...

Izzy – I don’t like her suggestion that we should skip lynching someone today. Also even if I’m not willing to put “all those and only those” people into the firing-line who posted prematurely, her defence of them as a lot makes me wonder, like she’s downplaying the chance there was a wolf in there? Her latest looks sensible again… gah.

Mira – the odd one out for me. Her actions might win her a place in my suspicion list (the early talking, mainly bantering, echoing other’s points… and just staying at the backstage). But really nothing to say more...

Pitch – I don’t see why he goes with Eönwë to make issues with totally sensible arguments… suspicious.

Steve – At times he makes very educated suggestions and at times he seems to try and work against our good… A tough one to call.



~~*~~

The 'Downs seem to be down again and it's coming 3AM...

If Sally agrees to post this then you'll have my votes and this post.


So my votes will be.

++ Gwath

++ Inziladun

++ Nerwen

++ Nienna


And don't lynch Brinn either!


If I'd be able to vote for a lynch I would say

lynch Pitchwife

Eönwë has made also good points but Pitch has merely tried to oppose tactics that are good to us.

Of the other two I do suspect somewhat Mira is the more "easy-going" - which might be good or bad - and Izzy is the more visible - in good and bad. Really hard to say about them.

And I do not claim I have the four wolves listed here. But I'd say there must be one, and there might be more.


EDIT: The 'Downs work again!!! Hurray!

[Isabellkya]

I'm going to make my votes in my next post most likely.
Spent forty-five minutes playing the F5 refresh game with the Downs. Don't want to risk that closer to deadline..

[Inziladun]

Since the forum has been acting up for me as well, I'll at least get these done.

++Nog

++Nerwen

++Brinn

With my luck, they're all three wolves, but I just don't see anything to fault them for, and they've been around enough for me to get a bit of a feel for them.

Still not sure of the other one...

[Nogrod]

I was just coming to close my computer when I saw this...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

they've been around enough for me to get a bit of a feel for them.

How can you say Brinn has been around enough? She made one post - which was fine and dandy - but why to say you "got a feel of it"?

I can see one says we shouldn't lose her because she only managed to post once or something as she can be a force the wolves need to reckon with (like I did), but to claim to have a feel from that one post- while several people have posted more and more passionately, and more openly...

Maybe I should rethink my suspicions from scratch?

Blah. 3.30AM. And three of my real votes I can still stand along with.

So hoping to see you toMorrow.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So how about we come up with a marking of our own to indicate whom everyone of us would like to lynch? I think it would be a good idea if everyone also told the others whom they would like to see lynched already on this Day - and hopefully also why. In that way we could lessen the erratic nature of the last hour choices a little bit more?

Especially if we have people who can only turn out at the last moments of the Day they would have it easier just scrolling the thread and see why some people would like to see some others lynched (if people write long posts and their points are just in the middle of them unmarked a fast skimmer might just miss them).

I think this is a perfectly logical idea. If all we focus on is people we trust then the wolves chould very easily continually vote to protect each other without it being noticeable that they're always protecting each other, at least at first since we all get so many votes. So it may take a bit before we can find any sort of pattern since it's likely that a lot of people will vote similarly anyway. But if we add suspicions in there as well then that's just another piece of data that we can look at for each person. More info the better. Hope that made sense...


At this moment I feel pretty good about Nog and Izzy. Inzil doesn't look to bad either. Eonwe though isn't sitting too well with me for now, just after my quick read through. Everyone else I'm still up in the air with.

I'm gonna skim through again, maybe have some other stuff to say, and then I gotta vote and go to sleep...

x'ed with a few

[Brinniel]

Yeah, working to sniff out the wolves is one way to catch them, but it doesn't always work. How many times has an innocent been wrongly lynched because they look 'suspicious'? The different style of this game is trying to make us look at things with a different perspective, and perhaps we should take advantage of that. If we try to figure out who's innocent rather than evil, then we can use the process of elimination to find the wolves. Of course I know that some wolves could very well fool us and appear innocent...but nothing's perfect. I know at least for me, sometimes I feel like I'm trying so hard to find the suspicious people that I end up voting for players for ridiculous reasons. It's a bit of an experiment but...perhaps if we actually take more time looking at who we don't want to lynch we'll be more successful. If anything, these under-the-radar wolves we might have could be in more danger than usual. Quiet wolves manage to win games by being left unnoticed...but in this game where you need votes in order to survive, you can't just hide in the background the entire game.

If some of you want to stick to the classic strategy and make an unofficial vote of who you want to lynch, then that's fine. Just don't expect everyone else to play the same way.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, what do we do about the quiet people toDay? If we ignore them they may get lynched by default– and likely won't be wolves, because the wolves will be trying to look especially helpful.

During these first Days I think we should keep the quiet ones alive, because we can't know whether or not it's due to RL. But if some players continue to lurk in the background throughout the game without reason, then they probably aren't worth saving.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Brinn – spoke sense early on the Day but hasn’t appeared after that. Could be perfect wolvery or just RL busyness… I’d hate to see her gone because of that especially as I have no possibility to see what she might do during the last hours.

Yeah, that'd be RL. I was around for several hours, but of course hardly anyone posted until I left. Don't expect to see a whole lot of me during the game because this is a busy semester and my participation will be limited.

I'll make my first vote now. I'd like to keep Glirdan around. Perhaps it's because I feel sorry for him last game (first game in two and half years and you lynch him on Day 1? yeesh), but it's also been a long time since I played WW online with him and I'd like to have a chance to get familiar with his playing style before seeing him lynched again:

++Glirdan

EDIT: X-ed since Sally

[Nerwen]

Did the site die on anyone else? Because it did for me, and not only that, it ate up a rather long post of mine. I'll do it again (more sketchily, alas). Note: these points may have been raised in the meantime– I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So how about we come up with a marking of our own to indicate whom everyone of us would like to lynch? I think it would be a good idea if everyone also told the others whom they would like to see lynched already on this Day - and hopefully also why. In that way we could lessen the erratic nature of the last hour choices a little bit more?

But is there any real difference between these dummy-votes and just making a suspicion-list in the normal way? It just seems like an over-complicated variation on something we do anyway. Will it hinder the ability of wolves to keep their paws clean when ordos gets lynched?

So, what do we do about the quiet people toDay? If we ignore them they may get lynched by default– and likely won't be wolves, because the wolves will be trying to look especially helpful.

If we agree to vote for some of them, the wolves may decide to revert to submarining tactics, so we lose that advantage. Thoughts?

EDIT:X'd since... I think Gwath at #83, but I can't quite remember.
EDIT2: word left out.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, what do we do about the quiet people toDay? If we ignore them they may get lynched by default– and likely won't be wolves, because the wolves will be trying to look especially helpful.

Right after I posted I thought of this same thing and was about to say it when you did. I think at least 2 of my votes will go to people who haven't posted that much, because I'd rather someone not get lynched simply because they didn't get the chance to post.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I was just coming to close my computer when I saw this...
How can you say Brinn has been around enough? She made one post - which was fine and dandy - but why to say you "got a feel of it"?

The one post seemed to have substance, she looked all right, and I'd rather not see her gone just yet. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Did the site die on anyone else? Because it did for me, and not only that, it ate up a rather long post of mine. I'll do it again (more sketchily, alas). Note: these points may have been raised in the meantime– I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet.

The forum has been down off and on today, but when I tried to access the main Barrow Downs site it worked.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, what do we do about the quiet people toDay? If we ignore them they may get lynched by default– and likely won't be wolves, because the wolves will be trying to look especially helpful.

At least for the first Day, I guess we're confined to giving a second chance to those we feel deserve it, and hope they'll be around more toMorrow. As for me, I may be leaning toward giving my final vote to Glirdan, simply because it would be a shame for him to die on Day 1 two games in a row, and I really haven't had a chance to see what he's made of.

x/d with 2 phantoms, 2 Wilwas, and a Steve

[the phantom]

Why tell them to calm down, Nienna? How incredibly boring. The post count isn't that high this game. The last thing you want to encourage is the double-whammy of low posting and boring posting.

And Glirdan, come on. You don't even know how to vote properly? The most basic thing that there is in this little game, and you don't do it? It's like a person who goes to Hollywood to break into showbiz and after years of hard work gets a gig as a background extra- and manages to get fired from that.

And I could paint Gwath with that same brush for his failure to be invisible. Seriously- how does that happen? Did someone shoot you guys with a Noob-ray?

And I still can't believe no one has suggested something interesting, such as- "On Day 2, why don't we all agree to dump three of our four votes immediately on a non-player (e.g. Shasta) and then we'll all have only one single vote with which to save someone from then on. It will make votes more meaningful and make things more tense and encourage bargaining and make lists and such much shorter and easier to keep track of etc etc..."

Come on. Show me something! To this point you lot have been borderline pathetic.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And I still can't believe no one has suggested something interesting, such as- "On Day 2, why don't we all agree to dump three of our four votes immediately on a non-player (e.g. Shasta) and then we'll all have only one single vote with which to save someone from then on. It will make votes more meaningful and make things more tense and encourage bargaining and make lists and such much shorter and easier to keep track of etc etc..."

Erm...

Originally Posted by The Moddess, aka Sally on Admin Thread

Everyone will receive four votes to be used each Day. Not four bonus votes, four votes. You may not use more than one vote on a person and you may not vote for yourself.

Now let me get back to the game without your distractions!

[the phantom]

Extra note: Would you stop with the "here and reading" announcements? I've seen several of those (Wilwa, Nerwen, and Loslote, maybe more), and you don't seem to realize that not everyone is allowed to say that (unless you are within an hour of the deadline).

Why is it necessary to tell everyone you're reading the thread? Isn't everyone? The only way it matters is if it is likely that several other members have been eagerly awaiting your contributions and you wish to inform them that their thirst will soon be quenched. In other words, you have to first prove yourself to be sufficiently noteworthy, awesome, or important in order to post "here and reading".

There are but a few who qualify to use this phrase at any time-
1) revealed gifteds
2) Seer-dreamed proven innocents
3) Mod(s)
4) SPM
5) Phantom

Are you on this list?

Then don't do it.

If at any point during this contest I feel someone has qualified to be added to the list, I will announce it.

[the phantom]

Oh good gravy, Steve- you honestly think that the quote from Sally disqualifies the plan? All it says is that you must spread your votes, hence you do not put all three votes on Shasta (he was just one example), but rather one on Shasta, one on Phantom, etc...

And if you don't want to vote for non-players, just agree on a plan to dump your first three votes on each other and forge a massive tie.

Plus didn't I already tell someone earlier not to be a ruler-kisser? It's really lame.

[Eönwë]

Trust
No-one yet... not good, especially in this game.

Seem Innocent
Brinn- Only one post, but concisely made quite a few good points.
Pitch- Seems to me like he's innocent who just overdid it a bit on the non-"Nog-quasi-voting" front.
Wilwa- Has posted very little, but she's giving off good vibes.
Izzy- Makes some nice, simple points without overdoing it. Don't know if I really trust her though...

Not evil
Nerwen- Looks better with every post, but I think her comment about wolves breaking the rules on purpose wasn't a very good start. Which makes her seem innocent

Not sure
Fea- For obvious reasons.
Rune- Hasn't really said much.
Shasta- Erm.... no. Got nothing.
Form- hasn't said anything except commenting on Days and miscalculating them.
Glirdan- Hasn't really said anything important except for backing Nog (incorrectly).
Mira- hasn't really said anything if substance yet.

Need to look at
Nog- Makes some good points, but seems a bit too defensive to me.
Lottie- Very very confusing. Sometimes looks good, sometimes evil.

Suspicious of
Inzil- Seems to have become one of the dreaded "middle people". He seems to be playing by the book- no strong accusations, no controversy, just doing what he needs to, but no more. However, he may just be a normal ordo, but he just seems too normal (his post count is in the middle too). He also voted for three people without giving any reasons, and that can't be good. Then again, I always find him suspicious.

Gwathagor- Posted a few one-lines. Seem pretty innocent, but he's been here for quite a while without actually saying anything of substance.

Nienna- The whole "That is how we will win" speech. She also seems to be agreeing lot rather than making any new points. And maybe she thinks a post count will make it all better?

Evil
No-one yet... yeah, I know.

edit: x-ed since last post.

[wilwarin538]

I am going to make a preliminary list before reading everything again. A *** beside someone's name means that my brain has not processed any sort of opinion on them as of yet, and I will be back later with better formed opinions of them (hence my use of the word "preliminary")

Brinn ***

Dun ***

Fea: trust, because I do.

Form: certain things about him seem a little off (Night post thing and Mira vote for him), but I still just can't see him as posting during the Night like that as a wolf. No matter how many times I try to think of it as a possibility my mind is like "What, that's impossible, it's like trying to picture phantom as a nice guy." So I don't see him as a wolf.

Glirdan: want so badly to trust him, but the fact that him and I are agreeing about everything is sooooo weird. I'm gonna have to stay neutral on him, cause it's all gut right now.

Izzy *** (though her name is sending me bad vibes, so I must have seen something I didn't like at some point, I'll take a look at her)

Lottie: I feel quite good here, I like her songs. But beyond that I just think she has very good insight and valid points. (the Mira votes are still in the back of my mind though)

Nerwen ***

Nog: I think I trust him. May just be a natural instinct for me though, so when I read through I'll watch close, see if that changes at all.

Pitch: quite good with indeed.

Rune ***

Steve ***

So I'm gonna go read now....

oh, and my CAT is feeling better now, though he is still taking a lot of CAT naps and such. He is a very good CAT and my favourite out of all my three CATS....I'll stop now...

*snuggles everyone*

x'ed with Nog

[Inziladun]

Since the late votes for Izzy ought to be scrutinized, I'll have it out that the primary reason I decided to vote for her at the last was the fact that I was disposed to think a bit better of her over Gwath because she'd given me a vote. Not the best of reasons to return the favour, I know. But that was my thinking at the time.

[Pitchwife]

OK, folks, I've got to get up early tomorrow; will be around for another hour or so, but I should start getting my votes 'dumped', as the phantom put it, just in case there's any technical difficulties again. So, to start with:
++Eönwë
++Lottie
Both have demonstrated independent thinking and mostly make sense to me. And see what I said earlier about Lottie's wolf-spotting knack.

I'm inclined to trust Nog more again after his reappearance toDay, but he's probably going to get his share of votes anyway, so don't think he needs one from me.
Might vote for any out of wilwa, Fea, Nerwen, Zil.
Still leaning positive about Brinn, Izzy, Glirdan, but enough for a vote? Don't know.

Rune and Form, whether wolvish or not, haven't given me any reason for special confidence. Definitely not going to vote them.

EDIT: bolding again.

[Brinniel]

About the late Izzy voting, I voted for her because I didn't find anything suspicious about her and didn't think she deserved to be lynched. Okay, I didn't find Gwath particularly suspicious either, but his quiet and subtle playing style makes me a little more uneasy and I thought Izzy was more helpful during the Day. I know both Nerwen and I had expressed interest in voting her near the end of the Day; I don't know where the other votes came from. On one hand it does look odd, but then there was a lot of x-posting during those last moments and part of it could've been a frenzy to prevent a tie from occurring. I don't know what the chances are that this last minute voting frenzy could indicate a wolf trying to save their mate; I certainly wouldn't suspect Izzy or anyone who voted her based on that alone.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by wilwa

This sentence doesn't make sense to me, and it's fishy.

What's fishy about that? If you read it in the context of popularity contest, trusting vs suspecting, no active lynch votes from the wolves, etc., it makes perfect sense to me.
By the way, wilwa, I've just become convinced that you can't possibly be a wolf. My wife says you're a kangaroo.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Glirdan and Loslote, why would Nienna talking/agreeing with Nog make him more innocent? She may be a proven innocent, but that doesn't mean that proven innocents only trust/agree with other innocents. She didn't have seer powers, so...

I just feel having a known innocent agreeing with him makes him seem a little more trustworthy. Anything she said could be taken for what it is as we know for a fact she wasn't trying to mislead us. However, that is not my main reasoning for having trust in Nog (which could very well be misplaced for all I know). It is the fact that he has been making sound arguments and has been logical and bringing up rather important points and thoughts.

Yet, as I stated in post #246, there is the possibility that he is a Wolf. I really am inclined to keeping him around due to his logic and reasoning, yet it is entirely possible that he is manipulating everything. Only way to find that out for sure would be to have him lynched or if he was Night killed.

Now on to Nog's list of last minute votes for Izzy at the end of the Day.

Originally Posted by Nog

.59 Inzil -> Izzy ("Now it's just two way with her and Gwath", he said earlier: "I hate for Izzy to go, really")
.59 Eönwë -> Izzy ("Because Gwath seems more suspicious.")
.00 Brinn -> Izzy ("I don't see anything particularly suspicious with Izzy, but is it worth voting for her if it's just going to create a messy tie situation? Though it look like only a two-way tie now..") + -> Fea (deciding on the Simon-role)
.00 Nerwen -> Izzy ("Ties her up with Gwath, I know... sorry...")

It is highly unlikely that there is no Wolf in that group, and out of all four, Eonwe and Nerwen stand out the most for their lack of reasoning. Nerwen's vote was the last of the Day and the deciding vote on who was to be lynched. Yet Eonwe voted with a mere explanation of "he's more suspicious." Care to explain why you thought so?

EDIT: X'd with Lottie times 2

[Nogrod]

There was considerable discussion on a possible threeway tie between Gwath who had one vote and Pitch & Izzy who had no votes at the end of the Day.

Then ten minutes before the end Nerwen opened it by voting Fea, Steve and Pitch.

Fea gave another vote to Pitch at .56.

So Izzy had no votes, Gwath had one vote, and Pitch had two (with Rune).

Then things started happening at the last minutes (and there probably were crossposting there).

.59 Inzil -> Izzy ("Now it's just two way with her and Gwath", he said earlier: "I hate for Izzy to go, really")
.59 Eönwë -> Izzy ("Because Gwath seems more suspicious.")
.00 Brinn -> Izzy ("I don't see anything particularly suspicious with Izzy, but is it worth voting for her if it's just going to create a messy tie situation? Though it look like only a two-way tie now..") + -> Fea (deciding on the Simon-role)
.00 Nerwen -> Izzy ("Ties her up with Gwath, I know... sorry...")

Hard to say if there is mayhem there or not. The votes look decent and more or less reasoned... but seasoned wolves are able to do it as well.

Needs to give it a thought.

EDIT: corrected a counting mistake before the last minute tallies