Of the Three and the Fading of the elves

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ yes, good point, Inziladun. I never realized that. I always thought it was Bilbo's lack of possession of the One that made him age rapidly, or I might've misread that Biblbo already aged greatly in Rivendell the first time Frodo and comapny visited. Then maybe this is why the Three were far more powerful than the sixteen. Can we also speculate that if mortal people were to dwell in the realms of Rivendell or Lorien (with Vilya and Nenya in effect), said people will turn eventually into gollum-like creatures and feel stretched within themselves, or is it a "pleasant" experience considering the differing nature of the One (evil) and the Three (good)?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Can we also speculate that if mortal people were to dwell in the realms of Rivendell or Lorien (with Vilya and Nenya in effect), said people will turn eventually into gollum-like creatures and feel stretched within themselves, or is it a "pleasant" experience considering the differing nature of the One (evil) and the Three (good)?

I wouldn't think Bilbo was in danger of becoming like Gollum. He lived in Rivendell for 16 years with no apparent negative effects, as opposed to the 'thin and stretched' feeling he had begun to have just before he gave up the Ring.
Now, I don't think the slowing of decay in mortals caused by the Three could have been indefinite, but who knows? Had the One not been destroyed Bilbo might have had another decade or so in him.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Let us not forget that Aragorn was raised in Rivendell, and lived there with his mother Gilraen after the death of his father. Nowhere does Tolkien (or any of his characters) mention that Aragorn's longevity was the result of his life in Rivendell; rather, it is attributed to the strength of his Numenorean blood.

Also to be considered is the matter of the Elessar, which was extraordinary in its healing abilities. Whether or not the one that was passed on to Aragorn is the original is not really important; the fact that Galadriel desired its power because it could help stave off the fading of the land is. Regardless of the version of the story in UT, the words are nearly the same:

"I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home."

Then Olorin said: "Would you then have the Elessar?"

And Galadriel said: "Where now is the stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil is gone who made it."

"Who knows?" said Olorin.

"Surely," said Galadriel, "they have passed over Sea, as almost all fair things beside. And must Middle-earth then fade and perish forever?"

"That is its fate," said Olorin. "Yet for a little while that might be amended, if the Elessar should return. For a little, until the Days of Men are come."

After which he returns the Elessar to her. In the other version, which is nearly identical save that Olorin is now Celebrimbor, the Elessar is remade for Galadriel in the Second Age by him. When he gives her Nenya, "she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn."

I find the "as she thought" part interesting, because it implies that she was mistaken. Regardless of whether or not she was, it would seem that the Elessar had great healing power over the land in which it was kept -- which, apparently, was first in Lorien, then in Rivendell, then back in Lorien again after Arwen gave it to Galadriel to give to Aragorn (a progression of possession that is stated in LotR when the Elessar is given to Aragorn). It may be that the Elessar has equal, if not greater, power to retard the fading of a land and its people.

Just a stray thought.

[Galin]

It's interesting that when Tolkien decided that time passed at the same rate inside Lórien as without, he noted however that it would be difficult to count the time in Lórien (italic lettering as published):

'... They cannot count the time, for they do not age in that time, but outside in fact 30 days goes by'. In Scheme a similar note says: 'They cannot count the time, for they themselves do not age or only very slowly. Outside in fact about 30 days passes.'

This was one of the effects of the Elven-ring worn by Galadriel. Bilbo had commented on a similar inability to reckon time in Rivendell, where Elrond also wore and Elven ring.'

The Lord of the Rings, a Reader's Companion, Hammond and Scull

As H&S also note, Bilbo remarks (Many Meetings) that time doesn't seem to pass in Rivendell: 'it just is'.



I find the 'very rough' Elessar text problematic in general, for example: why would Galadriel desire the stone in the Third Age after Gandalf arrives? Or why (according to the second version) would she think she needed it no longer in the Second Age when in another text, arguably written at about the same time according to Chistopher Tolkien (Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn), it was Galadriel herself that counselled Celebrimbor that the Three should be hidden and never used -- naturally enough, as Sauron still had the One at this point.

This is the power of the Elessar as first described in the Unfinished Tales text (italic lettering here for my emphasis):

'For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt.'

Granted, further description states or implies that the lands about the wielder grew fair, but, and this is just my personal opinion (and as of today), I think I prefer the Elessar being limited to this initial description, as I read it anyway -- by which I mean I am interpreting a lesser power here, in comparison to Nenya, based on this passage alone. This to me seems to nicely lay a foundation for the later and greater power to be wielded by Galadriel in the Third Age, even though she had to 'wait' for Sauron to lose the One to employ it.

Just to note that it exists: in the Later Quenta Silmarillion the -Green Stone of Feanor given by Maidros to Fingon- appears to be an 'alternate' previous history of the Elessar, and although both ideas are unpublished (by the author himself), and the LQS 'version' quite brief in any case, the text published in Unfinished Tales is later however.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

I find the 'very rough' Elessar text problematic in general, for example: why would Galadriel desire the stone in the Third Age after Gandalf arrives?

Indeed. When she already had possession of Nenya, for her to desire a stone with similar powers of healing and preservation as the Three makes little sense.

Originally Posted by Galin

'For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt.'

Granted, further description states or implies that the lands about the wielder grew fair, but, and this is just my personal opinion (and as of today), I think I prefer the Elessar being limited to this initial description, as I read it anyway -- by which I mean I am interpreting a lesser power here, in comparison to Nenya, based on this passage alone.

I tend toward that interpretation also, with the Elessar aiding the physical healing of beings as well. To me, that would explain how Aragorn's healing ability (though he already had displayed some native healing power, probably through his Maia and elvish blood) seems to make a large leap forward when he enters Minas Tirith with the Elessar in his keeping.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

About the Elessar being a "lesser power": That's why I found it interesting that Tolkien wrote that Galadriel gave it away after getting Nenya because she thought she no longer needed it. This to me implies that there was more power in the Elessar than she had initially realized, or that Nenya alone was not going to prove to be as powerful as she hoped it would be. Galadriel may have wanted the Elessar because she realized that it had powers Nenya did not, or perhaps that it combined with a Ring of Power -- especially one bent toward preservation -- would be much stronger than either alone. Thus a realm having both the Elessar and one of the Three might be better preserved and protected than it would have been with either one alone. Nenya had the vulnerability of being linked to the One Ring (probably because it was made using methods learned from Sauron); the Elessar did not, and what was done with it may have not been subject to fading with the demise of the One. That could give Galadriel a very strong reason for wanting it back. Not that it necessarily would have worked in the long run, but one never knows unless they try.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

About the Elessar being a "lesser power": That's why I found it interesting that Tolkien wrote that Galadriel gave it away after getting Nenya because she thought she no longer needed it. This to me implies that there was more power in the Elessar than she had initially realized, or that Nenya alone was not going to prove to be as powerful as she hoped it would be. Galadriel may have wanted the Elessar because she realized that it had powers Nenya did not, or perhaps that it combined with a Ring of Power -- especially one bent toward preservation -- would be much stronger than either alone. Thus a realm having both the Elessar and one of the Three might be better preserved and protected than it would have been with either one alone. Nenya had the vulnerability of being linked to the One Ring (probably because it was made using methods learned from Sauron); the Elessar did not, and what was done with it may have not been subject to fading with the demise of the One. That could give Galadriel a very strong reason for wanting it back. Not that it necessarily would have worked in the long run, but one never knows unless they try.

I believe Nenya was far more powerful than the Elessar. The elf-stone was said to heal the hurts of the land, men, and beasts (havens of Sirion). Thus, it would make sense that the jewel came from/made by Celebrimbor, as the healing properties and principle are clearly brought back with pronounced potency in his creation of the Three.

I say the Elessar is weaker because to me, it seems the wielder (Earendil) cannot evoke an "enchanted" enclave. The lands about the weilder were merely refreshed, restored, and healed. Healing is natural if damage is present. But what if there was no damage? There would be nothing to heal. And what then? Decay must come inevitably. Can something be healed if it is merely following its natural course? I think not.

This is where I think the Elessar and the Three differed. The Elessar did not violate the natural law because it could not/did not hold back time (preserve). Whatever was done and wrought by the weilder of the elf-stone, it would still be subject to mortality, though rejuvenated and healed for a while, but ultimately still mortal. When Celebrimbor made the Three, he took the healing and growing properties of his essay (Elessar) and combined it with Sauron's lore (arresting time), I believe.

Hence why Galadriel gave up the Elessar after possessing Nenya. With Nenya, she could grow all fair things about her, just as the Elessar afforded, but with the added luxury of completely preserving her tree-hugging works from the ravages of time, thanks to Sauron's lore. The Three were blatant violations of nature in noble hands.

And I think I finally understand where her regret comes from. With Nenya, she was able to replicate some measure of the Blessed Realm, which she seemed satisfied with, regardless of how some view Lothlorien as a pale comparison. And I now understand why Nenya had 'a power upon her' (U.T.) that caused her to long for Valinor. It's not hard to imagine since she uses the Mirror. Remember that she wished, were it of any avail, that the One remained forever lost (FOTR). I think she already knew by her usage of her Mirror, that after she went all out in beautifying Lothlorien, Nenya (via Mirror) showed her the future that concludes a Galadriel shorn of her power. A regret that stems from her foreknowledge (via Mirror of Galadriel future events) that the Great Ring would be found and Sauron will awake, and her golden dream hastens to a greay awakening (whether the Ring is destroyed, or recovered by Sauron or she takes it for herself). Everything she wrought was in vain.

And even if she had kept the Elessar after the One's demise, it would not match up with the satisfaction that Nenya provided. She and other elves would still be touched by the weariness of the world. With the Elessar, she would be constantly healing and in vain, since she cannot preserve what she heals or creates with it. So why not give the elf-stone to mortal men since the Elessar fits their very nature (temporary guests of the world).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed. When she already had possession of Nenya, for her to desire a stone with similar powers of healing and preservation as the Three makes little sense.

Yes, and I suppose it's possible that since we have (on purpose) two tales here, and 'though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone', perhaps the Olorin version is 'meant' to be problematic, pointing to the more likely tale being the other one?

However I'm not sure I buy this (and I have at least one question concerning the other tale too).

I tend toward that interpretation also, with the Elessar aiding the physical healing of beings as well. To me, that would explain how Aragorn's healing ability (though he already had displayed some native healing power, probably through his Maia and elvish blood) seems to make a large leap forward when he enters Minas Tirith with the Elessar in his keeping.

I would include beings too. As we know, The Elessar itself includes Men, Elves, beasts, at Sirion's Haven, and I imagine they were individually ministered to (noting the Silmaril at the Havens in Silmarillion, just to mention it).


For clarity perhaps: the Elessar as a 'lesser power' is not really my interpretation of the whole text -- and in a sense then, not really my interpretation -- but rather what I feel 'would be' the better story. Tolkien and others may (and likely do!) disagree.

That said, Sauron still had the One on his finger and nobody knew he was going to lose it someday (or at least I don't recall anyone having foresight in this matter), so why would Galadriel give up the Elessar-stone upon receiving Nenya? No matter the potency of each, she could not use Nenya in the Second Age in any case... according to none other than her own great self.