Imagine no religion

[Groin Redbeard]

I thank you for your rep; however, I have to say that I was surprised by receiving it. I expected to receive a chorus of bored groans instead of questioning. Nothing that I have written is not self evident to a Catholic enthusiast of Tolkien-- in fact, I thought that the bit about the Lembas as eucharistic and Galadriel as Mary was known to just about everyone who has touched on Tolkien's Catholicism.

All these themes are touched on in Bradly Birzer's "Sanctifying Myth" and Peter Kreeft's "The Philosophy of Tolkien."

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I thank you for your rep

I'd take it back and make it red if I could. Not for any theistic belief, but for plagiarism. Always thought you were parroting other people's words, here and elsewhere, but I did expect better than just copy and paste.

[Pitchwife]

skip - as far as I could determine by a quick google search, neither Birzer's nor Kreeft's books are available online, so it's not quite a matter of simple copy-and-paste.
So why make your rep a red one? In my book, it's not a crime to use arguments other people found first (we're all Dwarves standing on the shoulders of Giants most of the time), and it's a merit to represent them well, as Groin has done. OK, he could have given his sources in his post, but other than that, I see nothing wrong with it - as I said above, I had come across all the points he mentioned before (not in either of those books, but in Tolkien's own letters, if I remember right), but I still found his post enjoyable and well-written. So what?

[skip spence]

Pitch, if you google any part of the post, the source comes up. It's an article by Catholic film critic Steven D. Graydanus. Claiming credit for other people's words is not ok, simple as. I hope Groin can edit his post with the proper quotations as the content is relevant to the thread.

[Pitchwife]

I see... well, you're right then, of course, that's disappointing. Groin, you really should put it all into quotes and name the source in your post, and I'll say let's forget about it and go on with the discussion, OK?

[garm]

- this book is interesting for several reasons - first, it's the last book published by Tolkien in his lifetime. It's also (mainly) a book of sheet-music, being musical settings to some of Tolkien's poems by Donald Swann. And it's also noteworthy for the set of notes by Tolkien at the rear of the book, on his poems A Elbereth Gilthoniel and Namarie. Tolkien writes:

"As a 'divine' or 'angelic' person Varda/Elbereth could be said to be 'looking afar from heaven'... She was often thought of, or depicted, as standing on a great height looking towards Middle-earth... and listening to the cries for aid of Elves (and Men) in peril or grief. Frodo and Sam both invoke her in moments of extreme peril. The Elves sing hymns to her. (These and other references to religion in _The Lord of the Rings_ are frequently overlooked)."

And writing of the palantir in the Tower Hills, Tolkien has this to say:

"The High Elves...journeyed to the Tower Hills at intervals to look afar at Eressea... and the shores of Valinor... the hymn [A Elbereth Gilthoniel] is one appropriate to Elves who have just returned from such a pilgrimage. No doubt Gildor and his companions, since they were going eastwards, wer Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oilolosse..."

So, we have Elves and Men (and hobbits) praying to Elbereth, and Elves going on a pilgrimage to the Tower Hills. As Tolkien says: things like this seem often to be overlooked.

[Inziladun]

I quite like this thread, and feel some excellent observations were made.

Something has occurred to me which could explain the lack of organised worship of Eru in Middle-earth.

In our world, worship of God is codified and structured in various ways. Christians, Jews, and Muslims each have a book in which is written laws they are to live by, and the manner in which they are to worship God the Creator. The Bible, the Pentateuch, and the Quran are considered to be divinely inspired texts, and thus are to be absolutely obeyed.

The denizens of Middle-earth have no such divine guidebook. As has been noted elsewhere on this thread, the knowledge of Eru and his angelic governors, the Valar, is traditional, handed down from the Elves who saw the Valar in person, then to the Edain. The latter, as Númenóreans, presumably instructed the "dark" Men of Middle-earth.

Since Eru apparently saw no need to issue any such book of instructions, I feel the proxy-worship through the Valar must have been acceptable to him. Obey the Valar and follow the good promptings they (or Eru himself) put into their hearts, and they were glorifying Eru.

That leads back to Númenor, however. They alone, as far as the reader is told, had a practise of organised worship to Eru.

[On the Meneltarma] no tool or weapon had ever been borne; and there none might speak any word, save the King only. Thrice only in each year the King spoke, offering prayer for the coming year at the Erukyermë in the first days of spring, praise of Eru Ilúvatar at the Erulaitalë in midsummer, and thanksgiving to him at the Eruhantalë at the end of autumn.At these times the king ascended the mountain on foot followed by a great concourse of the people, clad in white and garlanded, but silent.

UT A Description of Númenor

Why did the Númenóreans do that? Was it an idea that simply occurred to them? After all, the Edain alone, out of all the other races, had a land specifically made for them. Perhaps they recognised the incredible way they had been blessed, and knowing Eru alone had caused it to be, wanted to worship him "personally". I like the idea of that, since they were apparently the only ones in the history of Arda to worship Eru in that way.

The UT essay does go on to say, though, that when people approached the summit of the Meneltarma:

....at once three eagles would appear and alight upon three rocks near to the western edge; but at the times of the Three Prayers they did not descend, remaining in the sky and hovering above the people. They were called the Witnesses of Manwë, and they were believed to be sent by him from Aman to keep watch upon the Holy Mountain and upon all the land.

If the Three Prayers were the invention of Númenor, without "instruction', one might ask why Manwë felt the need to "keep watch" on the Meneltarma. I don't really think such "witnesses" were really needed for Manwë to know what went on in Middle-earth: he pretty much saw what he wanted to see. So the eagles were probably just a reminder to the Númenóreans that the Valar were still there, and aware of what they did.

Now for symbolism. The eagles set down on the western side of the summit. That's pretty well in keeping with the motif throughout the books that west=good. What of the three rocks, though? Three eagles, three rocks, and three prayers. One might think it a nod by the author to the Holy Trinity. For an in-story explanation, though, perhaps those things are symbolic of the Three Themes of Ilúvatar?