‘Strains of Elvish Song and Voices', Bradford Lee Eden

[Faramir Jones]

Bêthberry and mark, you're quite right about the difficulties of trying to discern the possible literary influences on a writer, in this case on Tolkien. As you showed, mark, the latter himself made it clear of his own awareness that a lot of such influences are unconscious.

I'm sure we agree that any person writing about such possible influences needs to exercise humility, making clear that there is a large element of speculation involved. Words like 'might', 'may' and 'possible' need to be used a lot. I myself have tried to say this in my own writings. Whether I have succeeded or not is another matter.

I came across something interesting on this subject by the writer George MacDonald Fraser (1925-2008), in his book The Light's on at Signpost (2002), which dealt with his scriptwriting days in Hollywood, but which also included other matters. He said that he was working for the newspaper The Glasgow Herald in the 1960s; and there was a debate in the canteen on whether the orcs in LotR were the same as the goblins in The Hobbit. He wrote to Tolkien, and received a reply:

Yes, orcs and goblins were identical, and he added the fascinating information that they had been inspired by his childhood reading of The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie, eerie spellbinders which had helped to freshen my own infant nightmares. Their author was a Scottish minister named George MacDonald. (George MacDonald Fraser, The Light's on at Signpost: Memoirs of the movies, among other matters, (London: Harper Collins Publishers, 2003), p. 53.)

Fraser, after saying that this George MacDonald was related to him through his paternal grandmother, discussed the difficulty of discerning other inspirations, giving as an example what had been written on himself:

His [Tolkien's] orcs and goblins are George MacDonald's, but as to other inspirations, who knows? It is a common mistake to think that one can spot with certainly the wellsprings of an author's imagination, as I know only too well, having had a critic state flatly that I was plainly much influenced by Conrad - of whom I had not read a single word at that time. (Ibid., pp. 53-54.)

That said, I think that what you, Bêthberry, wrote in your last post is worthy of publication; and I hope to see it in print in the future.

[Bêthberry]

You are too kind, Faramir. Really, the pleasure was having a good discussion here amongst we Downers and I thank you and Helen, and Pitchwife and Aiwendil, for that.

And interesting stuff from George MacDonald Fraser. Thanks for posting that.

[Bêthberry]

There's something else I might add to that hypothetical paper of mine, that demonstrates something of how Tolkien thought of Tennyson.

Originally Posted by The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son

It is the heroism of obedience and love not of pride or wilfulness that is the most heroic and the most moving; from Wiglaf under his kinsman's shield, to Beorhtwold at Maldon, down to Balaclava, even if it is enshrined in verse no better than The Charge of the Light Brigade.

I read this some years ago and quite forgot about this detail, so I must thank Squatter for recently reminding me of it.