Tolkien's Influence on Babylon 5

[davem]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As proof of that to myself, I just spent ten minutes typing in a reply on my iPad, only to accidentally touch a wrong spot on the screen and entirely lose what I had typed.

Use Firefox or Chrome with the Lazarus extension, which will recover your 'lost' text with a click!

Anyway....

The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences).
.

Long time since I saw the series, but didn't it turn out that The Vorlons were in their own way as 'bad' as the Shadows - the Vorlons took the principle of ORDER to an extreme, such that they desired complete control over everything (similar to the Elves with their 'embalming' tendencies) & the Shadows devoted themselves to bringing about CHAOS, & this effectively brought about the long war in which the other races were caught up? I suppose this is not very Tolkienesque, in that the conflict is between Order & Chaos, rather than between Good & Evil.

Unless my recall is wrong.....

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

No, your memory is correct, davem. The Vorlons wanted Law and Order, and the Shadows believed in evolution through Chaos. The analogy is not perfect, of course, since Joe wasn't trying to duplicate Tolkien, and may have only been influenced by his love of it, in this respect. Even so, to some of the Elves -- like Feanor and those who chafed under the rule and the apparent restrictions of the Valar -- they were just as bad as Melkor and his lot. The only difference was their technique, in that Melkor was right up front with his lies and manipulation, while to those who disliked them, the Valar acted more subtly, puppet-masters acting behind the scenes with the ultimate (apparent) goal of control.

And alas, I don't believe that Firefox is even available for the iPad. Time will tell.

[Nerwen]

Fascinating thread.

I never watched Babylon 5 regularly– mainly because it was mostly screened in the middle of the night– and so I have little knowledge of the overall story, but even so I noticed a lot of Tolkien parellels. I actually thought I might be imagining things.



*You had to be very dedicated and/or insomniac to follow any SF series here when I was a teenager, let me tell you.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

davem, you're right about the contrast between order and chaos as being the definitive difference between the Vorlons and Shadows (as Ibrîn already confirmed) - and neither is good when imposed upon others. It reminds me of the Valar and their bumbling efforts to "help" the Children. Freeing themselves from both influences is what the younger races need to continue their development - a very Tolkienesque thought.

Interestingly, both of the older races are also defined by the questions they ask: for the Vorlons, it is, "Who are you?", for the Shadows, "What do you want?" The former reminds me forcibly of a (rare) serious Tom Bombadil quote:

Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?

Bombadil is perhaps like B5's Lorien in some ways - calling himself Eldest, yet allowing the Hobbits to make their own choices and mistakes, only assisting them when absolutely necessary and then leaving them to go their own way. Ibrîn, I don't see Lorien as an Eru parallel - he appears to be a created being and leaves in the end. I would instead see elements of Gandalf in his character - as always in the series, there are no copies, just influences. And that again is like Tolkien's own story development - using previous influences and weaving them together in a new way to create something unique.

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with you that it would have been interesting to see what JMS would have made of the LotR movie!! Perhaps he would not have been interested in bringing someone else's (sub-)created world to the screen, what with his own imagination being filled with the scope of his world.

There is another parallel in the development of the plot: the victory over the older races is a moral one, based on a confrontation with knowledge, rather than primarily military in the end. That is very like the end of Sauron's realm. And like that victory, it does not end the tale; there is still the heroes' own world which must be cleaned up. The similarities to the Scouring are there, though on a different scale.

B5 was there before the LotR movies, but of course the similarities in story bring up parallels in the visual settings and the casting of the characters. For example, I've been thinking that I would have liked to see Jason Carter (the actor who played the Ranger Marcus Cole) as Strider - he would have brought more dignity to King Aragorn, I imagine.

I'm enjoying all of your contributions!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've found another online article comparing B5 and LotR here. It goes into the general themes more than into specific details, which makes it very interesting to read. Here's a central passage:

...Babylon 5 might justly be called "an atheist's answer to Tolkien". All the same themes are there: the dangers of power for both the mature and immature, the drive to grow up into what one can be by virtue of one's nature, the inexpressibly moving human attempt to engage with realities that transcend all understanding, the epic, ages long conflict between right and wrong, the passing of one Age into another with deep, saddening loss of beauty but great hope for the future, noble heroes and baseborn traitors, fierce wars and faithful loves, courage and fear, wisdom and utter foolishness.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I've found another online article comparing B5 and LotR here. It goes into the general themes more than into specific details, which makes it very interesting to read. Here's a central passage:

I don't quite agree with the author of the link when he says:
...Babylon 5 might justly be called "an atheist's answer to Tolkien".

It seems to me that the chief difference between the universes of B5 and Middle Earth is not that of theism and atheism, but of optimism and pessimism. As Terry Pratchett says:

“I'd rather be a rising ape than a falling angel.”

Where JRR's tales are full of the decline from higher to lower, the future of mankind and other races in B5 is to achieve a Vorlon/Valar like state.

Yes, the two stories are written by people who consider themselves theists and atheists, but I do not regard these labels as necessarily poles apart since there are optimists and pessimists in both camps. The Eden parable contains this symbolised in the two trees. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil leads to the 'fall', the state in which "thorns and thistles" grow if we do not keep our garden/soul tended, but the other tree is still there if we are willing to pass through the fire of the Cherubim/Four Living Creatures/Valar who guard it. There is, ultimately, a sense optimism in Tolkien's work as in B5, because in both cases the heroes pass though the fire to the realm of light, beyond the West, beyond the Rim...


"Most probably we are in Eden still. It is only our eyes that have changed."

G.K.Chesterton -The Defendant (1901)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts, Ardent - as to overt religious content, there's actually more in B5 than in Hobbit/LotR. There are monks and preachers coming to the space station, and members of the crew state their religious preferences. Religious beliefs as a valid part of daily life are shown quite respectfully, considering that the writer does not adhere to any himself.