Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Eorl of Rohan]

I picked up a copy of "The Prince" of Machiavelli to see if there's any way this Scarburg situation could be resolved peacefully. This is what Machiavelli says:

Chapter 5. The Way to Govern Cities or Dominions That, Previous to Being Occupied, Lived Under Their Own Laws

When those states which have been acquired are accustomed to live at liberty under their own laws, there are three ways of holding them. The first is to despoil them; the second is to go and live there in person; the third is to allow them to live under their own laws, taking tribute of them, and creating within the country a government composed of a few who will keep it friendly to you. Because this government, being created by the prince, knows that it cannot exist without his friendship and protection, and will do all it can to keep them. What is more, a city used to liberty can be more easily held by means of its citizens than in any other way, if you wish to preserve it. (...) And whoever becomes the ruler of a free city and does not destroy it, can expect to be destroyed by it, for it can always find a motive for rebellion in the name of liberty and of its ancient usages, which are forgotten neither by lapse of time nor by benefits received; and whatever one does or provides, so long as the inhabitants are not separated or dispersed, they do not forget that name and those usages, but appeal to them at once in every emergency, as did Pisa after so many years held in servitude by the Florentines. (...) But in republics there is greater life, greater hatred, and more desire for vengeance; they do not and cannot cast aside the memory of their ancient liberty, so that the surest way is either to lay them waste or reside in them.

Current Situation: Scarburg, Free Republic, is Occupied by Lord Athanar, and there is an undercurrent of local dissent that shows itself in petty brawls and raised voices.

The rule of the former Eorl was more of a 'Free Republic' than the rule of the current Eorl. I think quite a few posters mentioned that the discipline and order around here were less than that of the Capital. For instance, locals murmured over Athanar's anger at Lothar's boistrousness, saying that the former Eorl would laughed and let it slide. The locals resent the introduction of new authority and the change that it heralds in its wake, and have showed their resentment in ways that could not be passed over. So, how to hold Scarburg? The second means suggested by Machiavelli is already in effect: the Eorl Athanar is living in Scarburg. The third means of creating a friendly government is also in effect: Thornen, the local official and magistrate, has been set up as the second-in-command. This apparently isn't enough. There's only one other way: despoil. Now it's time for Lord Athanar to show some cruelty, perhaps.

17. Of Cruely of Clemency, and Whether It Is Better to Be Loved or Feared

I say that every prince must desire to be considered merciful and not cruel. He must, however, take care not to misuse this mercifulness. Cesare Borgia was considered cruel, but his cruelty had brought order to the Romagna, united it, and reduced it to peace and fealty. If this is considered well, it will be seen that he was really much more merciful than the Florentine people, who, to avoid the name of curelty, allowed Pistoia to be destroyed. A prince, therefore, must not mind incurring the charge of cruelty for the purpose of keeping his subjects united and faithful; for, with a very few examples, he will be more merciful than those who, from excess of tenderness, allow disorders to arise, from whence spring bloodshed and rapine; for these as a rule injure the whole community, while the executions carried out by the prince injure only individuals. And of all princes, it is impossible for a new prince to escape the reputation of cruelty, new states being always full of dangers. Wherefore Virgil through the mouth of Dido says: "Res dura, et regni novitas me talia cogunt / Moliri, et late fines custode tueri." Nevertheless, he must be cautious in believing and acting, and must not be afraid of his own shadow, and must proceed in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity, so that too much confidence does not render him incautious, and too much diffidence does not render him intolerant.

From this arises the Question: Is it better to be loved more than feared, or feared more than loved?

The reply is, that one ought to be both feared and loved, but as it is difficult for the two to go together, it is much safer to be feared than loved, if one of the two has to be wanted. For it may be said of men in general that they are ungrateful, voluble, dissemblers, anxious to avoid danger, and covetous of gain; as long as you benefit them, they are entirely yours; they offer you their blood, their goods, their life, and their children, as I have before said, when the necessity is remote; but when it approaches, they revolt. And the prince who has relied solely on their words, without making other preparations, is ruined; for the friendship which is gained by purchase and not through nobility of spirit is bought but not secured, and at a pinch is not to be expended in your service. And men have less scruple in offending one who maketh himself loved than one who makes himself feared; for love is held by a chain of obligation which, men being selfish, is broken whenever it serves their purpose, but fear is maintained by a dread of punishment which never fails.

But everyone in a Tolkienesque Universe is so *nice*, I wonder if this cynical view could be applied to Rohan or the Riders of the Mark. Hm... Ah, well. Lord Athanar will decide, I suppose.
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[Thinlómien]

Ok, I basically agree with all Legate commented on Scyrr's bio. Good work and I'd consider the few points he brought up. Also, Eorl, are the corrections I posted to Groin's post ok for you or would you prefer the original version?

There's a healer - the very same Aedhel who just turned out to be a noblewoman in trouble at her home. She's written by Nerindel.

And what, is Scyrr going to assault the local women before Wulfric and Wilheard? Blasphemy!

Haven't seen your post yet, Dury, but I'm off to check it now...

[Thinlómien]

Ah Durelin that's brilliant, I had nothing particular in mind but somehow what you wrote amuses me... Wulfric will be off to do something else.

Eorl - two things I thought of:

1) if Scyrr has seemed like a bit more experienced soldier this far and you don't want to make him older, maybe you could just have him been a soldier for a few more years (since his teens). I have no idea when the soldier-training would be completed and when started, and whether it's an official thing or not. Of my chracters Wulfric who's 21 is a soldier (yet obviously not a very experienced one) and Wilheard who's 17 is theoretically still in training, although quite capable of everything a soldier should.

2) about Kara - just warning that a) her writer is not and will not be around, b) there's also a Dwarf and a hot-tempered northener who are quite fond of her so someone who's to assault her is going to be in big trouble - also I think she is one of the best liked people in the whole Hall.

I'll try to post for at least Wulfric today, hopefully for Modtryth too (I miss her) and possibly also for Wilheard if there's something to say. Foley, should you continue about the kids?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Also, Eorl, are the corrections I posted to Groin's post ok for you or would you prefer the original version? And there's a healer - the very same Aedhel who just turned out to be a noblewoman in trouble at her home. She's written by Nerindel.

I think I'll go with your version, Thinlomien!
As for Scyrr's age, I will go with the flow and make him twenty-four.
And Aedhel completely slipped my mind; I suppose I would have to wait for Nerindel in order to get Scyrr healed?

And what, is Scyrr going to assault the local women before Wulfric and Wilheard? Blasphemy!

Heheh. He's eeeeeeeeevil. But Wulfric hit someone *his father's age*.
From an ethical point of view, that's a thousand times worse than Scyrr going after a defenseless woman.

About Kara - just warning that a) her writer is not and will not be around, b) there's also a Dwarf and a hot-tempered northener who are quite fond of her so someone who's to assault her is going to be in big trouble - also I think she is one of the best liked people in the whole Hall.

Eeh... It's no fun threatening an NPC! Wait, who's that hot-tempered Northerner? Certainly not Thornen. He's the very definition of level-headed.
.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Heheh. He's eeeeeeeeevil. But Wulfric hit someone *his father's age*.
From an ethical point of view, that's a thousand times worse than Scyrr going after a defenseless woman. .

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Rohan would still be operating under a code of honor. According to that code, it's a man's job to protect (NOT attack) women, and it's perfectly acceptable for a man to test and challenge the honor of someone who is his equal. As it happens, Wuilfric did exceed the proper boundaries of the challege/response format, but his actions almost fit within society's guidelines. Attacking Kara would most definitely not.

I'm not saying it's something that Scyrr would never in a million years do...I'm just saying that it's not something that would occur to most men as a course of action at all. Scyrr might think of it, though, in frustration over not being able to avenge himself with Erbrand himself.

Sorry about the rant on honor. It's sort of a family obsession.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Rohan would still be operating under a code of honor. According to that code, it's a man's job to protect (NOT attack) women, and it's perfectly acceptable for a man to test and challenge the honor of someone who is his equal. As it happens, Wuilfric did exceed the proper boundaries of the challege/response format, but his actions almost fit within society's guidelines. Attacking Kara would most definitely not.

Hi, Loslote No, no, Scyrr wouldn't "attack" her. It would be like this:

Kara gathered the last armful of blueberries and wrapped them carefully in leaves, wide and cool, so that they wouldn’t be crushed and spoiled on her way back to Scarburg. This would make a wonderful blueberry pie. Perhaps she should gather some herbs as well? But no, the sun was going down, and she had entered too deeply in to the woods anyway. She should be heading back, right ab…

“It’s dangerous to be out alone in the woods these days, don’t you think?”

The voice rang out from above her, and startled, Kara looked up, to see a man perched on a high bough of a mighty elm with one hand on the elm’s trunk. He smiled wryly in a manner that struck a chill into her. His smile had a forced look about it, unbalanced, as if its maker had not decided whether he should smile or snarl, and his stare was cold and very hard. It took a moment before Kara recognized who he was. That rider… That man who was the cause of Erbrand going away. Scyrr. She had not recognized him at first because he had cast off his usual dark green and silver livery of a rider of the Mark, including his chain mail, and was clad in the dull brown of a commoner. The dull brown that matched the branches and the wood, as if he was in a camouflage. Who was the quarry? Oh, no, he wouldn’t dare. Or would he?

“What’s with that expression, Miss? I’m not going to hurt you. Or do you have some valid reason to be afraid of a rider of the Mark?”

Scyrr asked, alighting to the ground with easy grace. His injuries had taken a severe toll on his body, but he had always relied on his swiftness and dexterity and they did not let him down so easily. The injuries he caused. Erbrand.

Kara drew back, nervous. “No, no. It’s just that the sun is setting, and I have to hurry back. Perhaps I could better make your acquaintance later.”

She would have left; but then an instant later, a skinning knife whistled through the air and buried itself with a thwack in a tree beside her. It almost grazed her cheek.

“Where do you think you’re going?” Scyrr asked, his voice a dangerous purr. He had faith enough in his knife-throwing skill to know that he would not have hit her, but still, he had hesitated for a moment when he saw the fear in her eyes. He shook it off. They were all the same, these commoners, wild and feral, and who’s to say that the sweetheart of that tanner is not like him in spirit?

“I have been waiting here for you for hours. Surely you could spare a bit of time to aid us in our hunt for Erbrand.” Scyrr waited a moment, then said icily, “I heard you were on… intimate terms with the tanner. If anyone knew where he would have gone, it would be you. And yet you have kept your stony silence, saying that you knew nothing.”

“I…” Kara would have said something, but Scyrr interrupted with a snarl.

“I think you are lying, Kara. He wouldn’t have left you without a word. I think Erbrand has spoken to you before he left, has told you where he would be going, and where to find him after the hunt has died down. You are deliberately withholding information, and that, miss, counts as treason.”

“And the price for treason is death.” Scyrr said, his limpid blue eyes fixed on Kara, and his left hand dropped to the hilt of his blade.

*enter someone, preferably Thornen (probably the only one that Scyrr wouldn’t attack, out of respect for his rank), out searching for Kara because she was late, and stumbling across the scene*

*New Conflict Ensues*

More of a threatening kind, if you see what I mean. Scyrr wouldn't actually do anything to hurt her, but would say and do plenty of things to make her think that he would hurt her. Anyway, about that code of honor, Wulfric, a *young* man, attacked a *gray-haired* man! That's downright lowest of the low, even lower than attacking defenseless women and children. Only savages would do that. How is that code of... Wait. Is this one of those cultural differences?

PS. I am not sure. Is my post about Kara and Scyrr god-moding? I thought it would be okay because Kara is an NPC now, and I kept her speech and movement to a minimum, but still...

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Hi, Loslote No, no, Scyrr wouldn't "attack" her. It would be like this:



More of a threatening kind, if you see what I mean. Scyrr wouldn't actually do anything to hurt her, but would say and do plenty of things to make her think that he would hurt her. Anyway, about that code of honor, Wulfric, a *young* man, attacked a *gray-haired* man! That's downright lowest of the low, even lower than attacking defenseless women and children. Only savages would do that. How is that code of... Wait. Is this one of those cultural differences?

PS. I am not sure. Is my post about Kara and Scyrr god-moding? I thought it would be okay because Kara is an NPC now, and I kept her speech and movement to a minimum, but still...

Yeah, cultural differences. Lithor (it was Lithor, right?) had honor in terms of experience and age, but Wulfric had the inherited honor of social status. They were, basically, equals, and thus challenging the other's honor was acceptable and even, in some people's eyes, expected. Honor was sort of the currency back then - there was assumed there was a limited amount and that men were expected to challenge other men's honor, as well as respond to any challenges, or else their own honor was questioned. Wulfric did comply with society's expectations; he simply went a little overboard. (I am assuming a little bit that this was sort of like the society of the Romans, because they influenced majorly the culture of the Dark Ages...but I could be wrong, please correct me if I am. )

[Folwren]

Durelin, I posted, and as I did, I realized that what Thornden just said might be really contraversial. Oh boy.

I also spoke for Coenred, please tell me how to correct it.

-- Foley