Cirdan's appearance

[Pitchwife]

Well, maybe not 'common' in the sense that every other Elf would have it, but as in 'not uncommon, not exceptionally rare', which amounts to about the same thing as your 'found among them occasionally'. But who knows - perhaps even the dark-haired among the Teleri had a sort of silver-metallic lustre in their hair, counterpart to the dark copper-red found among the sons of Fëanor?
Which raises the question: Could it be that the name Sindar referred in part at least to the (cum grano salis) 'commonness' of that hair colour among them, especially in the royal family (beside the obvious sense that they were Elves of the Twilight in contrast to both Calaquendi and Moriquendi)? After all, the Vanyar were also named thus for their hair colour, weren't they? All speculation, I know...

[obloquy]

In addition to being Firstborn, Cirdan never went to Valinor. He was one of the very oldest beings in Middle-earth, and had never experienced the regenerative, sustaining power of Aman.

[elbenprincess]

Oh thanks for the many responses And @Pitchwife: Yes Im german and I forgot that in english its elven and not elben But I like elben more ;- )

Very interesting your points, and I think it really makes sence that the fading of the remaining elves in ME starts earlyer than in Aman but even in Aman they begin to fade "eventually" but I think only after a long long time, more than 20000 or 30000 Years and maybe its even individual. The more an elf is been through the faster is the process.

But we still don´t know if elves before they reach the fourth circle generelly will look old, cause cirdan can´t be take as example, cause he never saw aman and under stress they can age faster too (I read somewhere) And I think he had stess

But it must be terrible for an elf suddenly looking like after all this years of beauty.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(...) Which raises the question: Could it be that the name Sindar referred in part at least to the (...) 'commonness' of that hair colour among them, especially in the royal family (beside the obvious sense that they were Elves of the Twilight in contrast to both Calaquendi and Moriquendi)? After all, the Vanyar were also named thus for their hair colour, weren't they? All speculation, I know...

Tolkien actually raises this as a supposition of the loremasters, but that's when 'the author' follows with: 'Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar...'

On the origin of Sindar, the reader is referred to note 11 (Quendi And Eldar), which explains that Mithrim was a name given to northern Elves by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North, and that it was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.

It's added that Sindar was also later held to refer to Elwe's name 'Grey-cloak,' and it was said further that the folk of the North were clad much in grey for secrecy, especially after the return of Morgoth.


I take this to mean: here is the origin of the name Sindar (note 11)... and some loremasters also thought it might refer to hair, and Elwe himseld did have Silvery hair, but (and so on), adding that the Sindar generally resembled the Noldor, being tall, lithe and dark-haired (and then the eyes of the Noldor are noted).


This gave me the general impression that there doesn't seem to be any great reason for this added supposition -- Sindar including a reference to hair -- despite it coming from certain loremasters.

That's how I read it anyway

[Galin]

Back to the subject at hand... we don't know that there is anything called a 'fourth cycle' for Elves, and for myself, the reader's explanations: that Círdan was really old, or was under stress, and never went to Aman, do not well enough explain why he appears to look aged.

Text on fading refers to Elven spirits consuming their bodies so that they become invisible to men's minds, though they '... may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.' In note 7 to the commentary on the Athrabeth, it is noted that the Elves: '... eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hroar, but only in the memory of the fea of its bodily form, and its desire for it,...'

In Laws And Customs Tolkien talks about Elven ageing beyond what might be observed, as the text notes that Men deem that the Elves do not grow old in body-- and thus it might be thought that they can have children at any time in the ages of their lives. And what Men deem is not corrected as I read it, rather it is explained that the Elves do age, but in inner ways: '... the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes...'

In short they do age, as in: they fade.

In the text Aman once again 'fading' is raised: '... after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fea, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not full appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.'


To my mind it seems that Tolkien writes about, or refers to, fading enough times. Morgoth's Ring references include (not necessarily exhaustive)...

Page
210 'and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them'
212 'spirits invisible to mortal eyes'
219 '... the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fea.'
224 'Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully.'
225 'Then they may reveal to him their forms...'
342 'They eventually became housed (...) not in actual visible and tangible hroar, but only in the memory of its bodily form, and its desire for it.'
427 'thus an Elf would begin to fade (...), until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit...'


It would seem to me fairly notable if Elves who remained young looking for thousands of years in Middle-earth also had a phase of looking aged. And here we have opportunities to describe, or even briefly mention (to make clear, if so), some phase before fading, or describe that fading includes the bodily ageing of Elves.


For myself, I don't think any such phase really existed, with respect to the later legendarium anyway. It doesn't seem to me that the Elvish experience in Middle-earth normally included aged looking Lingerers. But yet Círdan is presented as looking aged, in description published by Tolkien himself, and never revised. So yes, good question!


If Círdan is to be characterized as an exception, I don't see how really old should matter here: if one lives ten thousand years, or twenty, or more, why should it matter if the way an Elf ages means that he or she begins to fade in the body (become invisible to Men, be held in memory), and become a Lingerer.

Stress? Well maybe Tolkien could focus on that somehow, but in my opinion this opens up a somewhat ambiguous door as to 'how much' is enough. Going by the description we have to date, I don't recall that Círdan was ever taken by the Enemy and tortured for years, for example.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Maybe it was all that sea air.

[Galin]

Also, Tolkien's late note 'it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless' could be an indication that he intended to alter Círdan's description in some theoretical future edition of The Lord of the Rings...

... or, it could represent Tolkien simply forgetting what he had written, and forgetting what he had published actually, or both. Or, since his point concerned Men who did not live nearly so long as Elves (obviously), his meaning could have been quite general -- since Men could arguably not hope to reach whatever age constituted even one 'cycle', the general beardlessness of all Elves was still a solid factor here.

In other words: all Elves were beardless, until they reached a certain age -- but an age in which it did not matter with respect to the beardlessness of Men with Elvish heritage.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Personally, I have always rationalized Círdan's aged appearance as a combination of true antiquity (awakened at Cuiviénen, or at the very least born there) and stress of a sort. There is a presumption that Círdan wanted to remain in Middle-earth, and while that was in part true -- he chose to stay to search for Elwë, and agreed to Ulmo's behest that he stay because he would be needed -- I don't believe it erases the possibility that he nonetheless longed to sail West, to Aman. Events of the First Age were stressful, all by themselves, and Círdan participated in many of the battles. He fostered Gil-galad, and one could assume that part of why he remained at the end of the FA was because his foster son chose to remain. Comes the Second Age, longer than the First, with a lot of stress in which Círdan is again a participant -- and at the end of it, his foster son is killed in combat with Sauron, who though defeated is not destroyed. Why didn't Círdan sail then? He'd lived through a lot of death and destruction, probably had his heart broken several times -- and yet he stayed. In the Third Age, he hands off Narya to Gandalf (do we know what effect such a sacrifice, even willing, has on a Bearer after they have borne the ring for over a thousand years?). After that, he becomes more reclusive. We know he sent troops to fight against the Witch King, but I don't recall if he went with them. He sends others, like Galdor, in his stead to important councils. Why? It seems to me that something happened to make Círdan more detached from the affairs of ME during the TA. For all we know, he is feeling a powerful version of the sea longing, and may well have been feeling it since long before Galadriel was even born. How many years before that pressure and other stress take their toll on an Elf's physical appearance? We know that psychological stress ages humans before their time; I think it not impossible that it might also do the same to an Elf. Círdan's beard may be an outer manifestation of his inner feeling that he has become bound to the mortal lands of ME; though he longs to sail, he feels he cannot until his purpose there is fulfilled -- and he has no idea when that might at last come to pass.

This is just my rationale. Tolkien never said any specific of this sort, but to me, it makes sense in light of those things we do know for certain about Círdan.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Personally, I have always rationalized Círdan's aged appearance as a combination of true antiquity (awakened at Cuiviénen, or at the very least born there) and stress of a sort. There is a presumption that Círdan wanted to remain in Middle-earth, and while that was in part true -- he chose to stay to search for Elwë, and agreed to Ulmo's behest that he stay because he would be needed -- I don't believe it erases the possibility that he nonetheless longed to sail West, to Aman. Events of the First Age were stressful, all by themselves, and Círdan participated in many of the battles. He fostered Gil-galad, and one could assume that part of why he remained at the end of the FA was because his foster son chose to remain. Comes the Second Age, longer than the First, with a lot of stress in which Círdan is again a participant -- and at the end of it, his foster son is killed in combat with Sauron, who though defeated is not destroyed. Why didn't Círdan sail then? He'd lived through a lot of death and destruction, probably had his heart broken several times -- and yet he stayed. In the Third Age, he hands off Narya to Gandalf (do we know what effect such a sacrifice, even willing, has on a Bearer after they have borne the ring for over a thousand years?). After that, he becomes more reclusive. We know he sent troops to fight against the Witch King, but I don't recall if he went with them. He sends others, like Galdor, in his stead to important councils. Why? It seems to me that something happened to make Círdan more detached from the affairs of ME during the TA. For all we know, he is feeling a powerful version of the sea longing, and may well have been feeling it since long before Galadriel was even born. How many years before that pressure and other stress take their toll on an Elf's physical appearance? We know that psychological stress ages humans before their time; I think it not impossible that it might also do the same to an Elf. Círdan's beard may be an outer manifestation of his inner feeling that he has become bound to the mortal lands of ME; though he longs to sail, he feels he cannot until his purpose there is fulfilled -- and he has no idea when that might at last come to pass.

This is just my rationale. Tolkien never said any specific of this sort, but to me, it makes sense in light of those things we do know for certain about Círdan.

This is good. I too think Cirdan was intended to be discretely Elder. Tolkien provides confirmation for a portion of your reasoning, from HoMe XII, Last Writings--Cirdan:

This is the Sindarin for 'Shipwright', and describes his later functions in the history of the First Three Ages; but his 'proper' name, sc. his original name among the Teleri, to whom he belonged, is never used. He is said in the Annals of the Third Age (c.1000) to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle-earth. This does not include the Istari (who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn.

Cirdan was a Telerin Elf, one of the highest of those who were not transported to Valinor but became known as the Sindar, the Grey-elves; he was akin to Olwe, one of the two kings of the Teleri, and lord of those who departed over the Great Sea. He was thus akin also to Elwe, Olwe's elder brother, acknowledged as high-king of all the Teleri in Beleriand, even after he withdrew to the guarded realm of Doriath. But Cirdan and his people remained in many ways distinct from the rest of the Sindar. They retained the old name Teleri (in later Sindarin form Telir or Telerrim) and remained in many ways a separate folk, speaking even in later days a more archaic language. The Noldor called them the Falmari, 'wave-folk', and the other Sindar Falathrim 'people of the foaming shore'.

It was during the long waiting of the Teleri for the return of the floating isle, upon which the Vanyar and Noldor had been transported over the Great Sea, that Cirdan had turned his thoughts and skill to the making of ships, for he and all the other Teleri became impatient. Nonetheless it is said that for love of his kin and allegiance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost and did not come to the shores to depart from Middle-earth. Thus he forfeited the fulfillment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwe and his own nearest kin. Alas, he did not reach the shores until nearly all the Teleri of Olwe's following had departed.

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressea ere it vanished into the West. Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready'. But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.' 'I obey,' Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.

As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship which after apprenticeship to Cirdan, and ever with his advice and help, Earendil built, and in which he at last reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.