Cirdan's appearance

[elbenprincess]

"It would seem to me fairly notable if Elves who remained young looking for thousands of years in Middle-earth also had a phase of looking aged. And here we have opportunities to describe, or even briefly mention (to make clear, if so), some phase before fading, or describe that fading includes the bodily ageing of Elves."

Then it would be interesting to know at whitch point (when) the faiding will start and if there a differents between Aman and ME.

Did I understand that right, the body ages, then the fea will overhelm and consume the body and the body is sort of invisible but can appear in the form of the former, young body, if the elf wants?
And so the body becomes untouchable? But what about the last battle (dagor dagorath) I think that at this point all the elves would be consumed by their fea, but how can they fight? And it is said that the elves would fight.

For me, the destiny of the elves sounds terrible One can just hope that an elf has to be 50000 years old and older until that happens.

Thats an interesting quote:
"But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hroar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hroar aged only apce, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension" (Morgoth’s Ring "Myths Transformed").

This gives me the impression that this "fading" is more the problem of the ME elves. Of course the eldar in valinor are affected too, but not as radical as for the ME elves.

[Galin]

elbenprincess wrote: Did I understand that right, the body ages, then the fea will overhelm and consume the body and the body is sort of invisible but can appear in the form of the former, young body, if the elf wants?

I can't find any certain evidence of an 'aged looking phase' in any of the above citations from Morgoth's Ring. Not that lack of evidence proves anything, however.

Inziladun wrote: I recall that the Silmarillion indicated that Maedhros having resided in Valinor was a factor in his recovery, and though Gwindor was a 'prince' in Nargothrond, I don't know that the same could be said of him.

That's true, but I think it's implied that Gwindor was Noldorin (and 'Flinding' had been a Gnome) -- although if he is never called an Exile specifically I suppose it's possible that this lord of Nargothrond had been born in Middle-earth.

[Gwathagor]

On elves with beards - in Tolkien's "Beleg Finds Gwindor in Taur-nu-Fuin," Beleg appears to be sporting a goatee. Not sure what to make of it, but there it is.

[Galin]

True but that picture is dated quite early (and much later used for a cover illustration to the Two Towers).

I'm not sure JRRT later imagined Beleg to be in his third cycle of life in the First Age, despite that no numbers (yet) are known with respect to a cycle.

[elbenprincess]

If cirdan is 11.000 years old and appears grey and old, are the elves of the same age in valinor old looking too? I mean Olwe and Ingwe and probably finarfin are in the same age or does the blessed realm prevent them from aging?

I still have no answer for the aging problem, once tolkien said that the elves become full grown with 50 -3000 years and from this point endure in their body form and then he said that they indeed grow older together with arda and that they are not immortal ´, they just have out of the ordinary long lifespans...
Does he mean physical changes, getting grey hair and wrinkels or does he mean the change of their body mood and impulses; the fading. And Tolkien said that the fea controlls the hroa, would that mean that if an elf wants looking old, the fea has a control in that, maybe that is the case for cirdan, I read somewhre that "he apperas to age himself"
And I read that at the point of dagor dagorath ALL the elves of the earth will be invisible not just the elves in ME, so it is clear that the elves in aman are fading too.
That all is really confusing, I just would like to know if the fading includes outwardly changes and how long it takes for an elf to fade in aman, if the elf is happy (no grief and all that)

For the circles, the first and second circle is very clear, childhood and early adulthood but what about the third circle, we know elfes grew a beard but is that in accord to usual signs of age (like cirdan) or get they just a beard? And what about the women I think we can assume that they don´t grew a beard.
I believe elfes are very vain, aren´t they? I think they wouldn´t be too amazed, at least many of them. And then to live 50000 jahre in the body of a eighty years old? I don´t think that would be fun, and therfore the elves would no longer be a fair folk.

[Galin]

Hmm, still, we read in Morgoth's Ring...

'But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hroar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyound our mortal comprehension.'

This description is in contrast (note how it begins 'But in Aman...') to what came immediately before it in the essay titled Aman (see Myths Transformed text XI) -- and what came before it is a description of the slow fading of the Elves in Middle-earth.

[Findegil]

In my point of view Aman has already faded completly with all its inhabitants.

Mortals neither can reach it nor see it. It is removed to the same level of existence to which the elves of Middle-Earth are doomed in the longrun of there lifes. To go to the west is not to escape from fading, but to accept it!
In Aman an elf might be less unhappy because he does not be reminded all the time about what he has lost, but he still HAS lost all intercourse with the physical world of Middle-Earth.

Respectfuly
Findegil