Galadriel

[Nerwen]

Morwen, I'm really not clear what point you're trying to make about Celebrían's "death". Whether or not she could have died, the fact remains that she... you know... didn't.

elbenprincess– regarding the bit about "rape = death for Elves". This is a "rule" that's puzzled me for a while. It's very often cited (especially by fan-fic authors attacking each others' work ), but anyone know the source? Was it a lasting element of Tolkien's legendarium (that I've never picked up), or just something he scribbled on the back of an envelope? The only reference I know of is the first draft of "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" (Note 5 to the main text in "Morgoth's Ring"):

But among all these deeds there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos.

In the next version Tolkien revised this passage to:

Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of any deeds of lust among them.

No mention of "rape = death".

So, if that's where it comes from, it's pretty clearly a passing idea that the author soon rejected.

Or is there another, more authoritative source? Anyone know?

[Erendis]

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

However,let me wonder on that question:If that was a fact,then how did the first Orcs aka Tortured and Corrupted Elves multiply?Does that imply that even Orcs had some feelings left at their dawn?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

In that case it may be an example of the kind of thing that has led me to abandon Middle-earth-based fan-fiction. There's plenty of complaints about winged Mary Sues riding pink unicorns– but their critics can be annoying too. Some will lay down the law about what is, or isn't, "canon" on the basis of out-of-context quotes, or downright weird interpretations that I suspect would have startled Tolkien himself considerably. (Did you know Elves don't need to eat?)

...Anyway, I think this has got seriously off-topic. Sorry about that.

[elbenprincess]

That is not really on topic, but I read somewhrere that Feanor might have been in love with galadriel, I read a quote: "Feanor was in love with galadriel..." but I don´t know if is was really stated in one book. Does somebody know more, was it stated that way somewhere?

Could that be, I mean he asked her three times for a strand of her hair and if he really just wanted to have it for a gemme, than he just could have stolen it, but that seems somehow like a courtship behavior, and therefor it wouldn´t help him to steal it. And he even beged for it. (feanor and beg(g)ing?

I think it´s interesting to imagine how the history of ME could have had changed if she just had give him some hair or at least had been nicer to him, I imagine her at her time in valinor a little arrogant, at least towards feanor, and that must had upset him.

[Galin]

Hmm, it was noted that Feanor wedded Nerdanel while he was still in early youth, and I get the impression at least (I haven't really looked at all the relevant texts here) that possibly he was married before Galadriel was born.

Anyway, according to later texts Feanor wondered at Galadriel's hair... but many likely did

As an artist of such amazing calibre, Feanor's asking for Nerwenian hair might be due to his fiery, creative zeal. At least that's how I thought of it.

[elbenprincess]

Yes, he wedded her long before artanis was born and yes, I think you are right, he probably just wanted the hair to create something, otherwise it would have been really creepy...creepy half uncle

I wonder if it was difficult for artanis to come to the fore of the rebellion and all that. If we look at Arwen, we see that Elrond still, although she was 3000, has a lot of say in her life. I wonder if artanis father tried to hold her off (she was even younger than 3000, she was about 1030) or if he just accepted his destiny.
And even long time before this events, I suppose, she was not the "normal" girl, we know she was strong in mind and body and all that...and maybe her parents had a lot of trouble, if they wanted her to behave like a "normal" girl. I guess especially among the eldar ( women no right to become queen...) such a behavior was probably not really approved.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

And even long time before this events, I suppose, she was not the "normal" girl, we know she was strong in mind and body and all that...and maybe her parents had a lot of trouble, if they wanted her to behave like a "normal" girl. I guess especially among the eldar ( women no right to become queen...) such a behavior was probably not really approved.

Well... I don't think that would be the case "especially" among the Eldar– it's word-of-author that, whatever their rules on inheritance, they weren't otherwise all that rigid about gender roles:

Originally Posted by Laws and Customs of the Eldar

In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal– unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters about which among the Eldar only a ner [man] can think or do, or others with only a nis [woman] is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom...(etc.; goes into detail, which is too long to quote here.)