Boromir's search for Imladris

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Another couple of suggestions as to why Denethor should have known where Imladris and the House of Elrond was : -

After the Fellowship left Lorien, Aragorn stated that light boats used to "come out of Wilderland" to Osgiliath a few years previously, certainly during Denethor's lifetime. And the West - East trade route across Eriador and Wilderland from the Ered Luin to Dale, which included Rivendell, would certainly have crossed the North - South route down Anduin and surely some travellers would have used both routes.

When Aragorn served Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil, surely in conversation with him he might have mentioned Rivendell ?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, firstly, let me just repeat here what was already mentioned before - Imladris was a hidden valley. It was hidden in the way Mith mentioned (if you were looking for it, even if you knew roughly where it was, you had to find it in the labyrinth of rocks and valleys), and also in the way that it was a secret place. Most people really didn't know where it lay, and I daresay a commoner who even heard the name could not know whether it is in Eriador, Mirkwood or the mountains of Gondor. Think of all the "secret lands of XY" from our real world mythologies. Think of Gondolin. Rivendell was effectively something similar (smaller, of course, but originally coming from the same idea).

Denethor was a wise man and he would know about things like that more than anybody else in Gondor (as is even said), but still the exact location, for him, would be just "a land far away, beyond a thousand hills and mountains... blah blah blah" (I hope you get the point).

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

When Aragorn served Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil, surely in conversation with him he might have mentioned Rivendell ?

Aragorn was in disguise himself. Nobody knew where he came from and where he disappeared to, and he certainly wouldn't boast about where he had been to, and the less about supposedly secret havens of the Elves. You could equally strongly expect him to talk about the Shire, which alone should show how improbable and illogical it would be.

[Findegil]

I don't think any 'light boat' out of Wilderland ever crossed the borders of Lorien. Thus this traffic originated from the south of Lorien, or at least it reached the river there, while the east-west traffic crossed the river fare more in the north.

It was unknown were Thorongil came from. And Thorongil did conceal that by purpose. Thus I believe even if he would have been asked directly about Imladris he would not have shown greater knowledge than what was common in upper class gondorian society (like Denethor).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I don't think any 'light boat' out of Wilderland ever crossed the borders of Lorien. Thus this traffic originated from the south of Lorien, or at least it reached the river there, while the east-west traffic crossed the river fare more in the north.

A boat from the north of Wilderland travelling down Anduin would pass Lorien, not cross its border. So if either Mirkwood men or Beornings wanted to sail down to Osgiliath I don't see what was stopping them. Otherwise, why was the portage way that Aragorn found built ? And I'm not sure that any men lived just south of Lorien near Anduin, apart from maybe some people of Rohan living in the eastern Wold.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

A boat from the north of Wilderland travelling down Anduin would pass Lorien, not cross its border. So if either Mirkwood men or Beornings wanted to sail down to Osgiliath I don't see what was stopping them.

Undeeps.

Anyway, I guess all the places around Rauros used to be in use in the days of Gondor's glory, when its vigilance reached as far as its north border (where later there were just the folks of Wold) and also when it reached far into the East, among other things, and the Kingdom of Dale still existed, and the Northmen were there in the plains, instead of murderous Balchoth and/or instead of empty wasteland (after the wars and Great Plague).

I can see a few Woodmen trading with "the Southerners" (i.e. the Rohirrim, rather than the Gondorians by the end of Third Age), but on a rather "unofficial" and random basis, if even that. The Wilderness was wild and Dol Guldur was all too close there (as was Lórien, for that matter, which also was not a place humans would like to cross. Passing between Southern Mirkwood and Lórien would be only for the brave ones, a rather creepy experience for a common man, in my opinion).

[Mithalwen]

I think that it is hard for us to really grasp how hard it was to navigate around Middle Earth even if you were skilful and wise. We live in a world where a taps of a keyboard can bring up a satellite picture of just about anywhere you choose on the planet. My god daughter can monitor the progress of her father in a yacht race from the comfort of her sofa. But take away our technology and how good would most of us be finding our way around?

Middle Earth is a world where most people don't travel further than they have to to meet the necessity of their daily lives - and for most that would be a very small radius from their homes. This would have been true of much of the England, Tolkien grew up in - and not its least densely populated regions. I have account my great uncle wrote of going to visit family on their farm each summer about a hundred years ago - it took all day to travel 20 miles to the other side of Bristol.

Look at Middle Earth, relate the scale of the geography to an area you can relate to. Look at how few major routes there are and bear in mind we would regard them as tracks. Denethor was an educated man and certainly would have known of Imladris but directing someone there is a different thing. It is like being in Cornwall and being told to find a hidden valley in Scotland! Worse since at least on a island you have the sea as reference. Boromir wouldn't even have had a compass to help him keep course over difficult terrain.

If you think of how long it took the Nazgul to find the unhidden Shire with the knowledge of Sauron behind them then it puts it into perspective. And think of the many happless visitors to wilder regions who get themselves bushed in Australia or the states.

[Rumil]

I must admit I'm still wondering about the relationship between Saruman and Denethor.

Regardless of putative palanti-ing, Saruman was noted as being more concerned with Gondor than Gandalf, who was more involved with Eriador and the North of Middle Earth. Saruman visited Minas Tirith fairly often, as Denethor iirc commented when Gandalf came to search for the scroll of Isildur.

It would be natural, if Denethor trusted Saruman, to direct Boromir first to Rohan, then to Isengard, before trying to find Rivendell. If this had been done Boromir's journey would have been easier and he might have been able to get some information. Surely Saruman would be one of the best people to ask, as although Denethor might not have known he was on the White Council, he was obviously learned and long-lived, and on the way.

For some reason Denethor decided against asking Saruman, I reckon he must have been suspicious already.

I wonder if Saruman ever met Thorongil?

I guess the location of Rivendell was known to Denethor in very vague terms - ie somewhere near the end of the Great East Road before it crosses the Misty Mountains, but as has been said, its exact location was hidden. Even so Boromir lost his horse at the crossings of Tharbad, rather out of the way as the crow flies. Was he therefore heading up the Greenway to Bree and turning right, or did he cut across country up the Hoarwell? If he went through Bree, I wonder how this fits in with the timing of Frodo's journey?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rumil

It would be natural, if Denethor trusted Saruman, to direct Boromir first to Rohan, then to Isengard, before trying to find Rivendell. If this had been done Boromir's journey would have been easier and he might have been able to get some information. Surely Saruman would be one of the best people to ask, as although Denethor might not have known he was on the White Council, he was obviously learned and long-lived, and on the way.

For some reason Denethor decided against asking Saruman, I reckon he must have been suspicious already.

I actually think so too. But not that he would be suspicious, like, really suspicious. I think it might have been something similar to Gandalf's "I might perhaps have consulted [the Ring with] Saruman the White, but something always held me back".

I would put three main reasons there:
1) some sort of pride (even though Saruman was "the" Wise and everybody knew that, Denethor would be the kind of person who would try to do things by himself if he could),
2) as mentioned above, "suspicion" (or something like that),
3) mere unwillingness to bother combined with the bit of disbelief that Saruman would actually know it either if the best of the Gondorians don't ("if something is not in our archives, it does not exist").

I think all these factors combined made Denethor (and consequently, Boromir) decide not to consult Saruman.

I wonder if Saruman ever met Thorongil?

I really doubt that. Thorongil operated mostly elsewhere (not in direct vicinity of Isengard, or not in any places where he would necessarily be forced to actually meet Saruman) and was really, really secretive. He would avoid exposing himself to more keen-sighted people than was necessary. Likewise, Saruman probably didn't have much of a special chance to meet Thorongil (such circumstances would be a bit unlikely to arise).

I guess the location of Rivendell was known to Denethor in very vague terms - ie somewhere near the end of the Great East Road before it crosses the Misty Mountains, but as has been said, its exact location was hidden. Even so Boromir lost his horse at the crossings of Tharbad, rather out of the way as the crow flies. Was he therefore heading up the Greenway to Bree and turning right, or did he cut across country up the Hoarwell? If he went through Bree, I wonder how this fits in with the timing of Frodo's journey?

Tharbad was at the time still the only good crossing of Hoarwell, and it was still on the road which was somewhat in use - or at least there were some remnants of a road. Referring back to Mith's post just above, if you can follow a road, you do it, especially in an unknown terrain. It is not that you can say "I will now turn and go fifteen miles northeast from here". You cannot do that even in the forest behind your house for a few hundred meters, unless you have a compass, and even then you must avoid thick bushes and whatnot. I think that much is obvious, so Boromir, if he could, would really prefer to follow the road as far as possible. It is actually more curious, as you say, that he didn't go to Bree, as that's actually what would make a lot of sense to do. But maybe this is where he got some directions, or knew that he should more or less try to follow the Greyflood. Who knows.