Galadriel

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

And even long time before this events, I suppose, she was not the "normal" girl, we know she was strong in mind and body and all that...and maybe her parents had a lot of trouble, if they wanted her to behave like a "normal" girl. I guess especially among the eldar ( women no right to become queen...) such a behavior was probably not really approved.

Well... I don't think that would be the case "especially" among the Eldar– it's word-of-author that, whatever their rules on inheritance, they weren't otherwise all that rigid about gender roles:

Originally Posted by Laws and Customs of the Eldar

In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal– unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters about which among the Eldar only a ner [man] can think or do, or others with only a nis [woman] is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom...(etc.; goes into detail, which is too long to quote here.)

[elbenprincess]

I have a question about the phiole of galadriel. It is said, that the phiole holds the light of earendils simaril (the star). How was it possible for her to catch the light?Maybe it wasn´t herself?
Somewhere I read that Yavanna tried to heal the trees with the light of such phials, she asked Aule and Manwe (i suppose in Aman they were able to catch the light) but they (Manwe and Aule) were very stingy, they wouldn´t give away much. So I suppose it is not easy to catch the light, and I think it is cool that galadriel was able, if she did it herself? But maybe this was also a present, like the elessar she get from Yavanna?
Did Yavanna gave Olorin the elessar especially for galadriel (I know at some point she was supposed to give it another person, but at this point, was it meant to be for galadriel) ? If it is the case, it is really amazing that a VALAR!!! thinks of galadriel that way

Another little topic, maybe not that important, but it annoys me a little that everywhere you read that arwen was the beautifullest elven in ME, actually it is stated, that galadriel was the mightiest and fairest=beautifullest of the remaining elves in ME. Although it is said that Arwen was the likeness of Luthien!!!
And it was said that Galadriel was the fairest of all the house of Finwe? Does that mean of all the noldor in Aman, did they all belong to the house of finwe, cause he was their king?

For me it seems that tolkien intended galadriel beeing at least the second beautifullest beeing ever, maybe even as beautiful as Luthien (we know he often changed his mind, maybe in his later years he changed his opinion about luthien a little.

Beatifullest
1. Luthien
2. Galadriel
3. Arwen

Greatest
1. Luthien (but IMHO Galadriel is greater)
2. Galadriel
3. Feanor (haha defeated by two girls)

Sorry for the rant, couldn´t resist.

[morwen edhelwen]

The point? Well, actually the point is that whatever happened to Celebrian when she came into contact with the Orcs could have caused her to die, according to something Prof. Tolkien wrote. She didn't... but it still had a terrible impact on her and there was a possibility that she wouldn't have endured it, although all it meant, for her, was that she sailed West to be completely healed. Am I right? Ignore this if the thread isn't active... -Morwen

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

The point? Well, actually the point is that whatever happened to Celebrian when she came into contact with the Orcs could have caused her to die, according to something Prof. Tolkien wrote. She didn't... but it still had a terrible impact on her and there was a possibility that she wouldn't have endured it, although all it meant, for her, was that she sailed West to be completely healed. Am I right? Ignore this if the thread isn't active... -Morwen

Well, if your point is simply that some bad things happened to Galadriel, I can't really argue with it– it's just that it came across a bit as if you were refusing to admit you'd been mistaken about Celebrian's death, which is what was puzzling me.

Anyway, since you ask, the rape = death business appears to be more "fanon" than canon anyway– see my points above– and besides, it's certainly never stated that's what happened to Celebrian (nasty fan-fic notwithstanding). So I'd say her suffering wasn't caused by Elves having any special weakness but simply because, you know, torture hurts.

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

Ignore this if the thread isn't active...

Don't worry, threads here are immortal, just like Elves.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, if your point is simply that some bad things happened to Galadriel, I can't really argue with it– it's just that it came across a bit as if you were refusing to admit you'd been mistaken about Celebrian's death, which is what was puzzling me.

Anyway, since you ask, the rape = death business appears to be more "fanon" than canon anyway– see my points above– and besides, it's certainly never stated that's what happened to Celebrian (nasty fan-fic notwithstanding). So I'd say her suffering wasn't caused by Elves having any special weakness but simply because, you know, torture hurts.



Don't worry, threads here are immortal, just like Elves.

Ha ha! Well maybe i should try and reword my points more clearly.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Did Yavanna gave Olorin the elessar especially for galadriel (I know at some point she was supposed to give it another person, but at this point, was it meant to be for galadriel) ? If it is the case, it is really amazing that a VALAR!!! thinks of galadriel that way

Hmm, Gandalf ultimately does say: 'This I give to you from Yavanna', so maybe, but why she would need it to keep things from fading, when she can use Nenya at this point in time, is difficult to say however.

Perhaps Tolkien meant this version of the tale to be considered false by the reader (referring to: 'In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone.' from earlier in the text), or externally, maybe Tolkien just made a mistake in a rough draft that happened to survive for us Tolkien fans.

This text is, in any event, a very rough draft, mainly in the first stage of composition.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, Gandalf ultimately does say: 'This I give to you from Yavanna', so maybe, but why she would need it to keep things from fading, when she can use Nenya at this point in time, is difficult to say however.

There was an excerpt in UT concerning Nenya's (negative) effect on Galadriel. It seems the elven ring had caused her joy in ME to "diminish," (or something along those lines) which is ironic considering that the Silmarillion states there was mirth in the places were the Three were in use. Could it be that she longed for the Elessar again for this reason? What is this "diminishing effect" that Nenya caused in her? It seems contradictory to the nature of the Three.

[Galin]

That's from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (itself described as a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed), which explains that Nenya increased Galadriel's latent desire for the Sea, thus diminishing her joy -- and given that the problem I mentioned above concerns chronology, Christopher Tolkien notes here (at this idea in this text) that Galadriel cannot have used Nenya until a much later time (note 9).

Christopher Tolkien does note that Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn and The Elessar were probably written at about the same time, and The Elessar does note: 'For the years of her exile began to lie heavy on the Lady of the Noldor, and she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, and yet was unwilling to forsake Middle-earth' (altered later to say that she was not yet permitted to forsake Middle-earth).

But that said, I can't find any indication in The Elessar itself that using Nenya had diminished Galadriel's joy so that she longed for another means of preserving her lands. In the 'Gandalf version' Galadriel notes that the land fades, and her heart yearns 'remembering trees and grass that do not die', and as this follows a discourse concerning Aman, to me the implication here is that Galadriel is remembering the Far West.

To me, it reads as if she had never attempted to use Nenya before Gandalf arrived!

The detail raised could explain Galadriel's desire for another means of preservation, but what about the rest of the story? Was the stone to work as well as Nenya, for example, and if so, was it to essentially replace her ring until Aragorn received it! and if not, then what?

If I recall correctly Hammond and Scull note that according to the first possible Elessar tale, Galadriel seems to have neglected her charge in that she herself did not keep the Elessar for Aragorn. This is another problematic aspect of this version I think.


Was Tolkien prepared to reveal that Galadriel wielded the Elessar instead of Nenya until she gave the former to Aragorn? I don't think so, and again, if this were truly the cause behind Galadriel desiring the Elessar in the Third Age, to my mind it seems a notable element to go unsaid in the text itself (the one that deals with the Elessar specifically).

In my opinion, raising the Elessar's power beyond that of making things appear fair, and (with respect to actual potency) healing by individual ministering ('preserving' in this sense, which is much more limited a power than holding constant sway over a whole realm), steps too much on the power of the Rings as well as stepping upon the impact of the story of Eregion.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ This latent desire for the sea, does it mean the sea in a literal sense, or for Valinor? If the Three rings could conjure mini-Valinoresque enclaves, wouldn't this longing of hers be assuaged by what she has done to Lothlorien (preserving & beautifying)? Or is this another inconsistency of Tolkien's? If her joy in ME was truly diminished as UT suggests, she wouldn't have coveted the One or be so concerned with preserving Lorien (destruction of the One negates Nenya). I guess it seems strange to me that Celebrimbor would deliberately give her that ring, knowing it would have that effect on her. It almost seems like he rigged Nenya.

[Galin]

Hmm, good questions. First I should add that the actual quote reads: 'increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return into the West.'

I find various problematic issues with both Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn and The Elessar, and we know that not every idea within these two texts survived revision (noting again, in Tolkien's defense, both are not exactly finished and polished texts), but maybe something else is said that can support this idea?

I don't recall any mention of the ring in RGEO at least, although the following sequence is a highly compressed account of course: at the end of the First Age Galadriel is banned and replies that she has no wish to sail West -- she passes from Lindon to Eregion and...

'But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward (...) and she returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'

See also Appendix F 'Of the Elves', where the yearning for the Sea was an unquiet never to be stilled in the hearts of the Exiles.

Galadriel's problem here appears to be that she is one of the Tareldar. In note 5 to CG&C (which looks at various notes on the names of Lórien) it is noted: '... deliberately echoing the name of the golden tree that grew in Valinor, 'For which, as is plain, Galadriel's longing increased year by year to, at last, an overwhelming regret.' But it is also said that Galadriel endeavoured to make Lórien an island of peace an beauty, a memorial of ancient days, and that she was: 'filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening.'


Perhaps Tolkien meant diminished in measure? in other words, wielding Nenya increased her joy (and that of other Elves), as she could have the power to echo the West in some measure and halt the swift fading in Middle-earth, from an Elvish perspective... but still it came with a price: a relative diminishing of that joy because Nenya yet increased her desire for the 'real thing', and (ultimately) a growing knowledge that what she had gained would yet be lost.


It's an interesting question. If other passages might connect to this I hope people post them. There might be something else here, in a letter maybe? or The Lord of the Rings itself perhaps? but I can't think of anything at the moment. Certainly we know the great effect when the Three lose their potency.

This all said, as yet I'm not convinced I need to go beyond Galadriel's status as High Elven and one of the Etyañgoldi -- and a banned Exile at that -- to explain her growing desire for the Sea (note this factor within the Celeborn from Aman notion too, considering that he did not sail with Galadriel in any event). And Lórien's ultimate fading is already one price (for example) for using Nenya.

Anyway, is CG&C the sole source of this 'great' power of Nenya upon Galadriel?