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Old 07-26-2010, 01:24 PM   #1
Rikae
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As for lovers trying to save wolves, and wolves using the possibility as cover, sure; among any of a number of other reasons someone might try to save a wolf: a false seer who has dreamed them as innocent, for instance; the wolf is a cursed who was dreamed of as innocent by the real seer; an (effective) ordo thinks they've spotted a sure sign of innocence in the wolf; whatever. Even in an ordinary game, there are multiple reasons this might happen, and in this game, even more.
Plus, I was asking about the Romeo & Juliet business above concerning lovers after the death of their partner - which is moot, even more so than I realized, and it seems the same person who was debating over it knew it was moot all along - and which has nothing to do with what you just brought up. Where did this come from?
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Old 07-26-2010, 01:33 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Plus, I was asking about the Romeo & Juliet business above concerning lovers after the death of their partner - which is moot, even more so than I realized, and it seems the same person who was debating over it knew it was moot all along - and which has nothing to do with what you just brought up. Where did this come from?
My R&J thing was in answer to Nerwen, and she made her comments (and I gave my answers) before there was Mod clarification. You may say there was no point in anyone but the Mod answering, but what if the Mod had left alignment to be a choice to surviving lovers? Given that possibility I thought that it was in our best interest to attempt to establish a "proper" way of behaving that would benefit the village (i.e. to establish that lovers should help the village after losing their mates).

So no, the point was not known to be moot. It had the possibility of being important. But once the point was made crystal clear by the Mod the discussion was over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
I'm sure it would take the false seer a while to discover this, though, and in the meantime, any sensible seer would leave a trail.
Do you really think a village would be stupid enough to start at the beginning of the Seer trail and follow it to a lynch without first checking the end of the trail for signs that the Seer knew he was false?

Again- Nog and I were discussing a Seer who knew he was false. That fact completely negates (or should anyway) the idea of following their words to disaster.
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Old 07-26-2010, 01:56 PM   #3
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I didn't check when Glirdan answered on the admin thread, I admit. As for trying to establish a proper way of the lovers for behaving, that's what I thought you were doing, and didn't believe in it. But there's no point in getting into that now. Clearly you have a stronger belief in your powers of persuasion than I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Do you really think a village would be stupid enough to start at the beginning of the Seer trail and follow it to a lynch without first checking the end of the trail for signs that the Seer knew he was false?
Well, I consider it entirely possible that I might miss or misinterpret a false seer's attempt to hint at being false amid hints at xyr dreams. Most seer hints I've seen were far from explicit and clear. Perhaps that's because I'm stupid, though. I cheerfully admit it: I'm a blithering idiot.

EDIT: X'd with Mac.
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:12 PM   #4
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I'm in trouble. I want to go to sleep soon and in all likelihood won't be back before DL. The trouble is, I obviously have no clue about who to vote, it's so early and so many people haven't even showed yet! I so don't like the deadline. I think I'll be off to reread the little that has been written, and be back with comments and thoughts and vague Day 1 suspicions (hopefully).
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mac
You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.
Interesting. Perhaps just a bit of colorful in-character talk, though. Perhaps something else. I would say your interpretation is less likely than the three possibilities I'm considering.
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
I didn't check when Glirdan answered on the admin thread, I admit. As for trying to establish a proper way of the lovers for behaving, that's what I thought you were doing, and didn't believe in it. But there's no point in getting into that now. Clearly you have a stronger belief in your powers of persuasion than I do.
It wasn't just my power of persuasion that I was counting on. Given that the behavior I was attempting to set up was advantageous to the village, I assumed many would come on board just because of that fact (it would be counter-productive not to). And then with the combined weight of the entire village saying "It would be fair and proper and right for the lover to do behavior XY" I figured that would be enough to sway the average lover.

So, I had less faith in my individual persuasive ability than I did in the combined peer pressure power of the entire village. Not to mention I figured there was at the least a very small chance that someone would insist on putting forth the idea and defend the idea that the lover could remain on the side of the WWs out of loyalty to their lost love. Doing that would obviously be to the detriment of the village and thus be a possible flag of a baddie or at the least someone who wasn't helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Well, I consider it entirely possible that I might miss or misinterpret a false seer's attempt to hint at being false amid hints at xyr dreams. Most seer hints I've seen were far from explicit and clear.
Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:48 PM   #7
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Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.
Win.

As for the False-Seer debate, if the False Seer realizes who they are, they could leave just as many hints telling us this as they left hints telling us their dreams. Seer-hints are always shaky things to rely on, and if we find hints telling us that that Seer's false, we're hardly going to try to ferret their dreams out. I don't think the False-Seer should reveal.

EDIT: xed with Steve and Foley - xe is a gender neutral way of saying "he" or "she". It's used instead of "they"...although I used "they" in this post, so nyah.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:07 PM   #8
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Thanks, Loslote.

Okay.......I really hate doing this. But I'm about to leave and highly doubt I'll have any access to a computer or internet for the rest of the day. So I'm voting.

I have nothing real to go on. Please don't read too much into this vote.

++Eonwe

Best I can say is that I just think that of everyone that's posted....he seems most like the one who is trying to be natural and is almost succeeding but isn't quite. Pathetic, I know. I have nothing better to offer.

Have fun without me.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:41 PM   #9
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Okay, I'm so confused I'll make a list. I don't think I've ever done it this early in the game, but at least I'm making sure I don't forget to consider somebody. I think the names of my two categories pretty much sum up my feelings at this point.

Won't vote:
Wilwa - Will definitely not receive my vote toDay. I have seen nothing that would make my alarm bells ring, and she's helpful and makes sense.
Lottie - I'm leaning towards finding her innocent.
Eonwe - Looks genuine this far.
Nerwen - Leaning innocent too - a bit less calculating than an evil Nerwen would be. I think.
Folwren - Posts sense and brings up points from an innocentish point of view. Definitely not going to vote for her toDay.
Lalaith - Her one post this far could go either way. I'm debating. But as I have nothing definite I will probably not vote her toDay. (She's playing her first game in ages, and it would seem unfair to lynch her randomly on Day 1. If I start to find her wolvish, though, I'll stop playing it fair. )

Confuses me:
Kath - She made it to Day 1! I'm proud of her. Other than that, I really can't say this or that about her, she hasn't said much.
Boro - Is confusing me to no end. His great Zeus left me quite baffled, as all the reasons I can think of for him saying that make no sense whatsoever.
Mira - I'm mainly confused about her not posting as Mira. She's posted once this far, so I believe I'm excused for having no effing idea.
Zil - I'm always bad at reading him, and this far this game doesn't look like an exception.
Blind Guardian - Nothing of substance this far. No idea, therefore.
Nienna - Has posted once but posted sense. I know she's excellent at posting sense even when a wolf though so I'm making no assumptions about her role.
autume - A one-liner and a two-liner. In other words, too little to say anything definite especially as I haven't played with her (I assume it's a she?) before - but just judging by the tone I'd say she is not a wolf. She seems - well - too little excited and tense, like, even a bit bored?
Rikae - Active and keeps the conversation running, I like it. That has nothing to do with her role, though, I have no idea about that! Confusing.
Shasta - Haven't seen him this far. Sad.
Mac - Makes sense, but also makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Especially the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac
You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.
So he's implying that Nerwen is Hades (ergo a wolf), but doesn't make a move to actually start suspecting her? If you think you've caught a wolf, why just mention it offhand instead of making a case and trying to get your supposed wolf lynched? Fishy, I'd say.
Nog - For some reason I have no opinion on him whatsoever. (Usually I'm at his throat already at this point of the game.)
Phantom - I could copy-paste what I said about Nog as it pretty much applies to phantom too. If I had to voice an opinion I'd say I was leaning towards finding him innocent, though.
Sally - Confuses me, as usual, or more than usual, actually.


EDIT: x-ed since Lottie's #95
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:18 PM   #10
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So, I had less faith in my individual persuasive ability than I did in the combined peer pressure power of the entire village.
I lack faith in that as well, at least not in this village. There are quite a few people here I wouldn't at all expect to bow to peer pressure.

I can't say it's really harmful for you to have tried it, though, as long as it wouldn't have resulted in a general blind trust of people who may not be on the village's side after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Not to mention I figured there was at the least a very small chance that someone would insist on putting forth the idea and defend the idea that the lover could remain on the side of the WWs out of loyalty to their lost love. Doing that would obviously be to the detriment of the village and thus be a possible flag of a baddie or at the least someone who wasn't helpful.
Yeah, I suspected as much. It's a neat way to create a suspect, isn't it? But I do mean create, and not find, since it's very much a matter of style and philosophy whether someone considers it a good thing to forge a general agreement of how certain players should act that goes beyond (at the time) the admin thread. It could be argued (by an innocent) that such agreements are unfair, or misleading, or an attempt at distraction.. I think I can recall you innocently attempting to reach similar "peer pressure" agreements before, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.
Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folwren
Okay, folks, someone explain to me what is going on with the random 'xe's' in posts?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xe

Last edited by Rikae; 07-26-2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Better "xe" link.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:22 PM   #11
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Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.
I'm not sure about that. In hindsight, hints like that don't have to be blatant. They can be subtle enough to fool wolves while being noticeable enough to stand out to those looking for them.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Loslote
I'm not sure about that. In hindsight, hints like that don't have to be blatant. They can be subtle enough to fool wolves while being noticeable enough to stand out to those looking for them.
Not in the case Phantom was talking about - the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village? There really is no benefit to the false seer keeping quiet in general, although in some circumstances there might be.

EDIT: X'd with Nog and Loslote, also somehow attributed Lottie's quote above to Folwren.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
I lack faith in that as well, at least not in this village. There are quite a few people here I wouldn't at all expect to bow to peer pressure.
Well definitely they wouldn't once it is called out for what it is, but had things proceeded unhindered I think it would be a fair bet that at least half would follow the common logic. I would most likely do so myself, as I would consider it in bad taste to go against what is perceived as the proper balance of things etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Yeah, I suspected as much. It's a neat way to create a suspect, isn't it? But I do mean create, and not find, since it's very much a matter of style and philosophy whether someone considers it a good thing to forge a general agreement of how certain players should act that goes beyond (at the time) the admin thread.
But in my mind arguing against the point out of a sense of "style" would be bad form, as the first priority of a good villager is to do what is possible to win. If there is a situation that arises where there is clearly one side that is an advantage to the good side, the good villager should take it. Not doing so would run contrary to their whole alignment thus disturbing the balance set up by the Moderator. At least that's how I view it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.
I assumed someone would say this, and the answer- there still remains a difference between hinting and outright revealing, and that difference is primarily an issue of time and being thorough. It is possible for Werewolves to miss hints, as at busy stages of the game it is nearly impossible to examine every last post of every person in complete detail, where as on the other hand no way would the WWs miss an open reveal.

So, a hinting false Seer can leave hints that, if you know to look for them, can be found, but if you don't know to single out that individual you may pass over them.

(looking back I see that Lottie appears to have made this exact point)
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:40 PM   #14
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So perhaps it would be better for the False Seer to come clean after all if xe realises that that's what xe is.
I think I agree with this. When the false Seer still believes xemself to be the real one, xe might well leave hints for the village to follow in case of their death. If xe discovers, through the death of one they'd dreamed, that they are the false one, they need to come clean to stop us making anything of their comments or votes.

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Perhaps Pan and Eros could take turns in protecting both of the Seers until we work out who is the real one (or one of them gets Night killed- there would be no sense whatsoever in not revealing in this case). Is this allowed? (The repeat protection by the Ranger and Hunter Guardian taking turns.)
I would think they could protect anyone they like, except maybe themselves, for one Night at a time. I guess that's another question for the mod though, as I didn't see it in the Admin Thread.

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Old 07-26-2010, 02:47 PM   #15
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Okay, folks, someone explain to me what is going on with the random 'xe's' in posts?

I have nothing of substantial weight or purpose to add.

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Old 07-26-2010, 03:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos specifying the rules
Eros: Will NOT be able to guard himself (as he is also part Hunter)

Pah: WILL be able to guard himself but may only do so once.
So there is no ruling to deny the group-work from Eros and Pan? Really? Well, hey, we've used any loophole in the rules before as well - even if I have thought double-rangers always been against the spirit of the game...

So both seers reveal, we make a deal that Pan protects A and Eros B and the other way around the next Night and so on - until the wolves figure out who either Pan or Eros are and do away with one (they need not come forwards, just silently stick to the plan we others come up with). Well that's a head-on tactics which would surely cause a stir, and be a bit dangerous: just one of the guardians need to mess up with the rangering and we have the seer flushed out very early on and the wolves having a chance to go at her/him... but then again the wolves would need to check that out every Night (whether one of the rangers is missing her/his duties) and thus waste their kills... and thence not be able to find them just trying to kill the seers - unless we try to lynch one of them rangers of course... hmm.

Surely it's up to the seers to decide on this.

Being a sporty player I do personally dislike the automatic protection -idea. In a way it's a bit unfair - but this has it's dangers as well. So at least discussing it wouldn't be that unsporty? It would be quite a fool-proof way to grant our seer multiple Nights to dream - unless we had real bad luck or someone really messes up what s/he's supposed to do...


So what say you?
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:27 PM   #17
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So what say you?
There are revenge-kills in play, too. We'd flush out the Seers and leave them to die at the hands of angry lovers. I think, besides the fact that it is rather unsportsmanlike, it's too dangerous.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:38 PM   #18
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So there is no ruling to deny the group-work from Eros and Pan? Really? Well, hey, we've used any loophole in the rules before as well - even if I have thought double-rangers always been against the spirit of the game...

So both seers reveal, we make a deal that Pan protects A and Eros B and the other way around the next Night and so on - until the wolves figure out who either Pan or Eros are and do away with one (they need not come forwards, just silently stick to the plan we others come up with). Well that's a head-on tactics which would surely cause a stir, and be a bit dangerous: just one of the guardians need to mess up with the rangering and we have the seer flushed out very early on and the wolves having a chance to go at her/him... but then again the wolves would need to check that out every Night (whether one of the rangers is missing her/his duties) and thus waste their kills... and thence not be able to find them just trying to kill the seers - unless we try to lynch one of them rangers of course... hmm.

Surely it's up to the seers to decide on this.

Being a sporty player I do personally dislike the automatic protection -idea. In a way it's a bit unfair - but this has it's dangers as well. So at least discussing it wouldn't be that unsporty? It would be quite a fool-proof way to grant our seer multiple Nights to dream - unless we had real bad luck or someone really messes up what s/he's supposed to do...


So what say you?
An interesting idea. I suppose it's not any more risky that the rangers will get killed than that the seers will, and at least this way we'll have the benefit of all the seers' information out in the open, all the time.

But what's to prevent a false reveal from tying up one of the rangers?

EDIT: X'd with TP & Nog.
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