WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[the phantom]

No time to say much at the moment, but I can explain the Tum kill briefly since I saw someone ask.

The good team had the true Seer, two Rangers to protect that Seer, a Hunter, a pair of Shirrifs, Athena (who knew a gifted), Demeter (who knew Persy), plus another possible true Seer (the Mythomaniac), plus one of the Rangers knew an innocent because of the save.

It was an impossible mountain for the baddies to climb, even if they had all been alive. But of course, Wilwa was dead and Rikae was the surefire lynch the next day, so it was basically two Wolves versus all of that firepower. If I had come over to the good side and used my kill on Shasta, then we're basically down to one single Wolf (Lalaith) versus all of those gifteds plus me and plus Nerwen with her dream. Ridiculous.

From the very beginning Wilwa and I were saying via IM that the baddies needed to catch some breaks right at the beginning if they hoped to have any chance at all due to the fact that they were facing an entire village of gifteds (I mean think about it- I've seen villages this size with only three gifteds versus four wolves, where as this village had a dozen or so!). A lover being lynched the first day was a blow to be sure, and when Wilwa died, the game had slaughter written all over it had I defected completely.

Not to mention it makes more sense for a lover to strike in anger against the side that actually killed their sweetheart, doesn't it?

[satansaloser2005]

Really, though, you're just a jerk. We all know it.



By the way, in case everyone hadn't already figured it out, I of course knew Dun.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Oh, and Shasta? You need to link that post, 'cause I can't find it. That hint completely made my Day though. Of course I was hoping I could butter you up for a while (or that you'd just stay lurking in the shadows and that my precious Dun would kill you, but obviously that ddn't pan out) but again, somebody ruined my fun. Jerk.

Meh, sorry about that. I remember considering Shasta for my hunt at one point, but he wasn't in the top three my last Night.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Meh, sorry about that. I remember considering Shasta for my hunt at one point, but he wasn't in the top three my last Night.

Yeah, that's why I more or less sold you out to the wolves. I was hoping you'd get killed and take one down, but then Greenie died instead and I felt a bit rubbish.

I'm assuming you caught my big hint of big?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Yeah, that's why I more or less sold you out to the wolves. I was hoping you'd get killed and take one down, but then Greenie died instead and I felt a bit rubbish.

I'm assuming you caught my big hint of big?

Eventually, when I stopped focusing on the wrong people.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

No time to say much at the moment, but I can explain the Tum kill briefly since I saw someone ask.

The good team had the true Seer, two Rangers to protect that Seer, a Hunter, a pair of Shirrifs, Athena (who knew a gifted), Demeter (who knew Persy), plus another possible true Seer (the Mythomaniac), plus one of the Rangers knew an innocent because of the save.

It was an impossible mountain for the baddies to climb, even if they had all been alive. But of course, Wilwa was dead and Rikae was the surefire lynch the next day, so it was basically two Wolves versus all of that firepower. If I had come over to the good side and used my kill on Shasta, then we're basically down to one single Wolf (Lalaith) versus all of those gifteds plus me and plus Nerwen with her dream. Ridiculous.

I thought that was it– I'm not sure what I'd have done in your place, actually. I don't like jeopardising my chances of winning, but then, the game was pretty unbalanced– it might have felt like a hollow victory.

I'm sorry if that comes across like a criticism of our Modgod– it's just that it is hard to make these experimental games fair to both sides.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm sorry if that comes across like a criticism of our Modgod– it's just that it is hard to make these experimental games fair to both sides.

It is difficult and I take no offense whatsoever. It was unbalanced, and I put the Wolves through hell and back again with this game. I tried finding ways of balancing things, but then RL stuff decided to rear it's ugly head in my face and knock me down a few notches.

Still, well played EVERYONE. It was kind amusing to read all of this and watch it all unfold.

On a passing note, I did want the Wolvsies to win by the way. And I was sorely disappointed when Wilwa was taken down because her and phantom were making a killer team.

None the less, I am quite happy with the turnout....Just looks like I need to get back into writing again. Some of my narrations were not as good as I would have liked them, with the exception of the select few of course (Foley, I will say, as long as it was to write yours, I had an absolute BLAST writing it! Definitely up there on my list )

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And I was sorely disappointed when Wilwa was taken down because her and phantom were making a killer team.

Beloved Yet Fearsome ModGod, I live to serve, you know that, but

*thbbbbt*

[Boromir88]

This concept of a win feeling "unworthy" or "unjust" or that it has to be a "fair" win is just completely over my head.

Yes, as a mod you try to balance the game as best as you can, but in the end is it truly balanced? There's something that goes overlooked, maybe there's a mistake, or one side always starts with an advantage, whatever the case just think about it. It's like umping a baseball game. Human error, you make a bad call, do you compound the problem by purposefully making another bad call against the other team, to "even" out the number of bad calls? That doesn't make you a fair umpire, that just makes you incompetant.

This trend that every game has to come down to the final lynching for it to be a worthy game, a worthy win, because if it came down to the last lynching than it must have been truly balanced, I think is silly.

I doubt Mith liked having two of her wolves dreamt of and lynched the first two days, and then the third wolf lynched the next. It wasn't any imbalance, that's just how the game unfolded. She didn't say "naughty" village for lynching wolves the first 2 days, lemme even this up a bit. How is that any different from a player trying to evem a game out due to some perceived imbalance?

Wilwa, you died because your pack chose to kill the hunter. That was your choice, no offense met, but sorry your own tough luck. You didn't get a kill because of a ranger protection, again sorry your packs tough luck. Things didn't go the wolves way this time, that's how it unfolded. But maybe you should think about the wolves decisions first before declaring there's some kind of game imbalance.

And maybe the wolves started out in a tighter corner because of the number of gifteds in this game. Maybe they needed some luck to go their way to win, and clearly they didn't get that at the beginning. But how many times does the village need luck go their way to beat the wolves?

All this mid-game tinkering because Mods or someone else feels like one side got the short straw, (and forbid a game not being fair) is part of the recent decline. In poker, is it "fair" if my hand is KK, when someone else's is AA? Each game the village is dealt a hand, and the wolves theirs. You nut up, shut up, and just play the hand your dealt to the best that you can.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

All this mid-game tinkering because Mods or someone else feels like one side got the short straw, (and forbid a game not being fair) is part of the recent decline. In poker, is it "fair" if my hand is KK, when someone else's is AA? Each game the village is dealt a hand, and the wolves theirs. You nut up, shut up, and just play the hand your dealt to the best that you can.

But Boro, the rules of a poker game aren't supposed to favour a particular "side" to begin with either. The WW equivalent of the "luck of the draw" would be more like who gets what role, or how successful a gifted's early random pick is. So I'm just saying– with all respect and gratitude for Glirdy's hard work– I do think this game was rather weighted against the wolves. At least until phantom zapped tum, anyway. It was that action of his I was (semi-)approving, rather than attacking Glirdan, in case you thought I was. (As I said, it really is hard to make experimental games even.)

Also, I– ahem!– do hope you're not referring to my recent game as part of the "decline"?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, I– ahem!– do hope you're not referring to my recent game as part of the "decline"?

Apologies if I've left that impression. My post wasn't intended as any negativity towards anyone or any game. It was my general feelings and inability to understand the feelings of the majority. I simply don't get why we should feel like if there's something imbalanced, we need to "fix" it and even it out.

Maybe with the number of gifteds this particular game did put the wolves at a disadvantage, but it wasn't an unforgivably, impossible imbalance, at the start. The reason the wolves got severely behind wasn't due to any "unfair" play. It was because the ranger stopped one of their kills, they then killed the hunter who made a correct guess (you saw Lottie's PM, she wasn't sure about her choice, it just happened to be Hera), and the seer dreamt of another one. They didn't get in that position because the game was imbalanced, they got there because of the play of the village. It's not any attack about the merits of the wolves, the fact is we've all played this game have good and bad games, no one needs to prove themselves here. But the wolves got quickly behind not because of a game imbalance, but because the events that unfolded.

Let me ask this, in this idea that we need to fix out all the imbalances. How was what happened fair to Tum? I don't mean to put anyone on the spot, tum probably really doesn't care, I don't know. But she was the seer, she did what she was supposed to she did her job. How is it fair to her that her own side punishes her for doing what she's supposed to do and has to be told "sorry, you're gone."

Or let's say this. I think a village with 3 wolves and a seer as gifted, the wolves actually start with a pretty good advantage. However, this seems to be generally accepted as a "balanced" game, so I'll say yes that's a balanced game. Now, Nerwen, what if the wolves are you phantom, and Fea, and the seer is a first-time seer? Is that still so even? And lets say the seer makes a slip that you catch, at night you alert your packmates, and first kill is the seer. Now, lets say next night, your packmates say to you, you know what we're such an awesome team we already started out at an advantage, their only gifteds gone...Nerwen we're going to kill you because this games so uneven now and we should balance this out. Would you think that's fair? But hey, it's for the sake of balance, so it has to be right?

I hope you can at least understand my position here. Try as we might, every game is going to skew things to favor one side. It's not our job to try to balance it out, it's our job to play the roles we're given. Should be that simple at least, because I'm not going to start thinking I should start holding back out of fear that performing the role that's given to me will unbalance the game and then I face retaliation from people who are supposed to be on my own team.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

On a passing note, I did want the Wolvsies to win by the way. And I was sorely disappointed when Wilwa was taken down because her and phantom were making a killer team.

You did? That's interesting. I usually like it when the village wins. I've played before when the wolves won, and it wasn't nice. Throughout most of the game, I hoped the villagers would win this time....even after I'd been turned, I wasn't sure what I wanted.

Phantom, your explenation makes sense. I figured it was something along those lines, which was why I figured you must've been Zues, for no one else, that I knew of, would do it.

Nerwen and Sally - I think I understand what you're saying. I just need to play more, I think.