Harry Potter and The Stolen Plot...

[alatar]

It's taken years, but I'd finally put down my animosity towards the Harry Potter series. I've liked the movies, and the Lego video game looks cute, but the books...well...there's an ugly history there that I'd rather not revisit.

So I've started reading the series, comparing what I read to the movies, and to, of course, Lord of the Rings. What was striking to me (and possibly in a post somewhere in the billion within this thread) is how HP:The Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone ends much like FotR. Harry/Frodo wake up after facing the enemy, in a bed, with a wizard at his side recounting what happened just before our hero blacks out. I read the chapter with Harry lying in the Hogwart's hospital and couldn't help but see Frodo in Rivendell with Gandalf at his side.

Coincidence?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

It's taken years, but I'd finally put down my animosity towards the Harry Potter series. I've liked the movies, and the Lego video game looks cute, but the books...well...there's an ugly history there that I'd rather not revisit.

So I've started reading the series, comparing what I read to the movies, and to, of course, Lord of the Rings. What was striking to me (and possibly in a post somewhere in the billion within this thread) is how HP:The Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone ends much like FotR. Harry/Frodo wake up after facing the enemy, in a bed, with a wizard at his side recounting what happened just before our hero blacks out. I read the chapter with Harry lying in the Hogwart's hospital and couldn't help but see Frodo in Rivendell with Gandalf at his side.

Coincidence?

More than that, probably: Tolkien's influenced so much of later fantasy, so why not this? That's not quite the same as saying the plot was "stolen", though. I've read things that do copy The Lord of the Rings directly, and there's a difference.

Also, as this guy points out, you can draw comparisons between the HP novels and a lot of other things too.

That poster is being funny, of course, but in fact I do have a problem with the HP books being generally a bit derivative (rather than straight rip-offs of any one thing). It's not that Rowling uses elements that appear in other stories, it's that I've never found what she does with them all that interesting. That's just my personal reaction, of course. I know they caught a lot of kids'– and even adults'– imaginations.

Btw, as I've said elsewhere, it's always fun when someone unearths one of these prehistoric threads. The Downers of the First Age certainly had quite a lively debating style:

Originally Posted by Aryana

This is a message for tumil about the Hogwarts moto.
BASCIALLY to stop me from screaming at you all, im gonna keep this as short as possible.
JKR did classics at A level and i think even at UNI

Srsly? UNI?!! NOES!!!111

Originally Posted by Aryana

the motto means never tickle a sleeping dragon
very funny and very dumbledoreish
like the rest of them books
that has NOTHING to do with tolkien, cause im sure he would NEVER use something so humourous.

Nope. As we all know, Tolkien never used any line remotely like that, anywhere.

Originally Posted by Aryana

dont get me wrong, i love LoTR and tolkien is an amazing writer, but he isnt for children so he wouldnt use that, JKR is!

What, Tolkien write a childrens' book? The very idea!

Originally Posted by Aryana

and also about you all thinking that dumbledore is gandalf. why dont u realise that gandalf is merlin!

Oh.

Originally Posted by Aryana

anyway im gonna go now, but u all better go home and do your homework before preaching about tolkien being the one god.
because even though his books r great, he wasnt amazing. he was a racist facist little old man. think about it. the orcs, evil and black, come from the same place that africa would be if you compared the two maps of our world and middle earth.
now u cant say thats a coincidence!
ha!
i have proved u all wrong! mwhahahahaha!
(with thanks to my equally angry friend, izzie!)
mwhahahahahahaha
byeeee
dont hate me just cause im right

Well, how can one possibly counter such a devastating argument as that?


*sigh* Darn it, I why didn't I join the Downs eight years ago? Everyone's so staid and literate these days!

Note: seriously, most of the thread is not like that at all.

[alatar]

Grima Wormtongue is called thus as no one, with the exception of the bewitched Theoden, likes his slithering ways and constant lying. Peter Pettigrew Wormtail, a rat in more ways than one, is named thus as...

One nick seems natural; the other forced.

And I'm not even going to mention anything about a certain person going into hiding after losing a finger.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Grima Wormtongue is called thus as no one, with the exception of the bewitched Theoden, likes his slithering ways and constant lying. Peter Pettigrew Wormtail, a rat in more ways than one, is named thus as...

One nick seems natural; the other forced.

And I'm not even going to mention anything about a certain person going into hiding after losing a finger.

Okay, that's a point. "Wormtail" is an obvious... er... reference, let us say. And as you say, it doesn't quite work.

Not sure about the missing finger. It may be simply that Rowling wanted to include the old tradition that a shapeshifter's injuries persist from one form to another, and just happened to pick "missing digit" as the telltale mutilation, when it could as easily have been a torn ear, or something.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay, that's a point. "Wormtail" is an obvious... er... reference, let us say. And as you say, it doesn't quite work.

So at least it's not just me.

Not sure about the missing finger. It may be simply that Rowling wanted to include the old tradition that a shapeshifter's injuries persist from one form to another, and just happened to pick "missing digit" as the telltale mutilation, when it could as easily have been a torn ear, or something.

Two fingers could have worked even better to fool the MoM of Pettigrew's death, but no, we need to leave nine...

Bet it was his Ring finger.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

So at least it's not just me.


Two fingers could have worked even better to fool the MoM of Pettigrew's death, but no, we need to leave nine...

Bet it was his Ring finger.

It's a long time since I read any of the HP books, but according to various internet sources I just checked it, it's his index finger. Which is extremely strange considering he was at liberty to pick any finger to sacrifice.

Anyway, the parallel is hardly unique. One of Lloyd Alexander's Prydein novels has an evil wizard named Morda who cuts off his own finger (the little finger, because he had a tad more common sense than Wormtail) pours his life-force into it to render himself immortal, and dies when it's destroyed.

So working out what's coincidence, what's imitation, and exactly who's copying who isn't that easy.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So working out what's coincidence, what's imitation, and exactly who's copying who isn't that easy.

You clearly need to be more biased and conspiratorial.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It's a long time since I read any of the HP books, but according to various internet sources I just checked it, it's his index finger. Which is extremely strange considering he was at liberty to pick any finger to sacrifice.

I recently watched the 6th film, and they made it his right hand ring finger for the movie. I found that quite funny. And it is strange he'd pick that finger, losing a pinky makes far more sense.