Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[the phantom]

I never should've gone to YouTube to get that link, as there is so much LotR stuff I haven't watched in forever. I ought to be asleep now. *sigh*

Have you heard the news?

Classic voice-over

Sped up version

Just for Sally

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

From the Elvish point of view! From our point of view, the Elves are evil!

Seriously, stop taking this line on things people. I am going to be bad this game, darn it, and if you people keep putting forth this ridiculous notion that we are the good guys, I will have no choice but to become a Cobbler!

And no, I'm not the undetermined allegiance person. No bluffing here, just telling the truth. My allegiance is clear (evil), but if my entire team decides that they are in fact the good guys, then logically they have placed me on the other side. That's just the way it is.

Last week I snuck down to the Anduin and knifed a young boy and hid the knife beneath his sleeping brother's bed where I hope it will be found by someone and used as evidence of the brother's guilt. The week before that I mauled an old woman and left some great eagle feathers upon her. *snicker* And remember that little village I used to terrorize against the forest a bit farther north? The chief- I'd kill one of his friends or family each year on his birthday, ha ha! In the end he couldn't stand it and took his own life! *cackles with glee*

Don't tell me we're not as bad as they come! I know better!

[the phantom]

All right- seriously sleepy here. Before I go, just to make sure everyone knows what they need to know, a summary... Be sure to point newcomers back to this post, as it is doubtless the most important thing that will be posted until I'm back posting again tomorrow.

1) Vote Phantom for rep!
2) Phantom-Rep will not lynch his supporters.
3) We are Orcs. We should be evil and enjoy it!
4) If too many Orcs act like they're not evil, I'll turn against them.
5) No, that doesn't mean I'm that special role orc.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

If tp was the Undecided Orc, he'd never have decided already. Surely you remember the game where he was Zeus, and killed his own Seer to even out the game? If he were the Undecided Orc, he would not decided instantly to align himself with the SoE, he'd choose whichever side was doing worst at the time when he had to choose.

Nah, that's just what he did that game.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Last week I snuck down to the Anduin and knifed a young boy and hid the knife beneath his sleeping brother's bed where I hope it will be found by someone and used as evidence of the brother's guilt. The week before that I mauled an old woman and left some great eagle feathers upon her. *snicker* And remember that little village I used to terrorize against the forest a bit farther north? The chief- I'd kill one of his friends or family each year on his birthday, ha ha! In the end he couldn't stand it and took his own life! *cackles with glee*

So? Serves 'em right! We all agree on that, don't we, lads?

Originally Posted by the phantom

All right- seriously sleepy here. Before I go, just to make sure everyone knows what they need to know, a summary... Be sure to point newcomers back to this post, as it is doubtless the most important thing that will be posted until I'm back posting again tomorrow.

1) Vote Phantom for rep!
2) Phantom-Rep will not lynch his supporters.

Phantom-Rep should lynch his supporters if he comes to think they're those murdering Sons of Elrond! You mean you wouldn't?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nah, that's just what he did that game.

And he said then, he likes fair and even games, and will try to balance the teams.

On that note, I have to be awake in six hours, so I'd better slip into that state from which I can awaken. Good Day, all.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Mesa see this has already gotten pretty interesting even with just a few people.

Um... that wasn't me. Snaga speak better. But I would like to ask, how am I supposed to play since TP already used half of the good quotes before I even had the chance. But so, I can start already with looking at what's happening here...

I am not entirely sure about whether it is good to have such a rush in the beginning. I mean, we can now - and probably will, very likely - spend the rest of the Day discussing whether TP is good or bad or whatever, and whether to vote him for representative or not, while of course another wing of die-hard anti-supporters will emerge and wish to lynch him, or something like that. While having a topic to start with is better than bumping in the dark (sic), and I am sure it makes TP happy to have all the Day for himself, not sure if the way things have been focused on is the best to do it. But at the same time, it is at least a good topic for the start - and with such a topic, the way of people's behavior might nicely begin to show in people's reactions (and of course it will be most interesting to see this after tp is dead and we know his role, mwahaha *licks blade* ). But we have still a full Day in front of ourselves, and this is a big village, so I think there will be lots of time to speak of different things.

For start, what I think about the initial debate (and about phantom's proposal - but I will save the best for the latest, of course ). I have to agree with what's been said that tp acts according to his own ideas, and it might be that even as SoE he will be actually equally dangerous (because of this) to his pack. On the other hand, not sure if, with such an attitude, he can expect to last long.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Oh, and I also thought I'd mention that anyone that votes me for rep is completely safe for that day. No lie.

Okay, this is the one thing I really dislike - that's basically blackmail. It effectively means that "if you don't vote me, look, look, everyone else will do it, and then I will lynch you, because you will be the last remaining one". Speaking of that, I'd like to see what will you do with your promise if really everybody voted for you, phantom? Then people could only die at Night. Not that I think that you would think it will work - there will be always somebody who disagrees and will not vote you - but if it was like that, it would be the craziest way to make the Sons win. I must also say, there is one thing - if everybody unisono voted phantom, there will be lot less clues as well.

But now let me sum up what I think of phantom's proposal, personally. From the above already you can see, phantom, that I am not so keen on supporting you straightaway. While the idea might be good if you are good, sorry, I mean evil; I am not too keen on voting you, mostly just for the sake of that I think there will be more people - possibly like sally and Loslote - who either for lack of time, lack of Day 1 imagination or even for SoE-ish hiding in bandwaggon reasons (as already Nerwen well noted, and I think it is a good possibility) - will give their vote to you, and given how the system works in this game (if I understood it correctly), that will give tp-representative's vote tremendous power, even if there are a few other Representatives, each with his pitiful one vote or something like that (and I know, it is obvious that you will enjoy using the quote "Poweeeer! Un-limited poweeeer!" once you get there). Again, I think it is safer for the SoE if the votes do not split too much here - if it becomes all deed only of one Phantom, then even if he were innocent (read: innocent of murdering Orcs, not of all other things), we get no real clues from the lynch aside from "the phantom did it right/wrong". So because of this, I think I will rather go for somebody else, to offer a decent competition.

That's not to say I could not still vote you if you, say, keep only your two or three votes and nobody else votes you and you seem trustworthy. Apart from what I have said (which is an analysis), I have no reason to think your doings worth suspicion. In fact, I'd have found it most disturbing if you decided not to run for a representative - now that would be disturbing. I only find it unwise to vote you now. But we shall see. Still, we've had only a few people showing this far, so I am most interested to read from all the others, and see whom I deem worthy of my vote.

[Thinlómien]

Hearts
Legate
Nerwen (!!!)
Shasta

Does not heart
Sally
Lottie
phantom (jerk)

Really, the beginning(ish) of Day One and I already feel like jumping and screaming. Who the idiot came up with the idea for electing phantom as a representative? I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention. *glares at Sally and Lottie*

I think it would be a much better idea to make history in a different way - by lynching phantom on Day one. He claims, after all, that he's never been lynched.

/rant

*deep sigh*

Well, even if I try to think of this objectively, it doesn't look much better. I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably). The fact that there were two of them makes me quite worried. It doesn't help at all that Sally is claiming to amuse the mod and Lottie said she's voting early because she won't be around later but she still made several posts after her vote. It's just utter stupidity. The only scenario that makes sense is that one of them is a wolf with phantom and uses his phantomness and excuse to make an easy rep vote for a fellow and the other girl is just using the opportunity to mess around for fun.

As for phantom himself, I don't know what he's up to, and to be honest, I'm not very interested in spending all Day playing games with him to figure out if he's good or evil because he currently annoys me (although it's not his fault the two voted him for rep, of course).

Otherwise, there is not much to say yet. Should we discuss the rep rules? I think at least that it's ridiculous to make this into a disgusting politics game where you make parties like "you give me your vote, I won't lynch-vote you" - it's not silly but also dangerous: it becomes a war of clans where one's party matters more than their true alignment, which we definitely don't want in a werewolf game.

And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.

[Isabellkya]

I think it more prudent than previously, for all to make their thoughts known on players. That way the Rep's have things to read. Of course this is on the hope that they don't simply decide amongst themselves, but take into account what the Non-Rep's think.

I hadn't thought about that. In what Boro discusses in #65. We don't want a Rep who will cower and give-in to the other Rep(s). Representative dynamic is something to think about as well.

The "you give me your vote, I won't lynch-vote you" could always be a tactic to hide Elves voting for Elves for Representative. Since I think this style of voting has a slightly higher information rate. Are Elves going to be bold and attempt to elect their mates into power - which I think is a larger connection than the more traditional distance voting. how else would you setup up a scenario in which you could explain away voting for your mate, when/if the time comes that you are called out for it?

You know better than this, Boro. To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day. And also, it fed in nicely to the underlying motive which was simply to create discussion and get the ball rolling.

Sally voted for you in her first post of the game, second over all. Loslote's was the 17th of the Day. Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

Okay. About post #85 is when I started skimming because I noticed 38 minutes left.

I support adding Mira to the/a lynch pool.

No more people should vote for phantom.. three votes. Good grief.


X'd with Nerwen and Wilwa

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I think it more prudent than previously, for all to make their thoughts known on players. That way the Rep's have things to read. Of course this is on the hope that they don't simply decide amongst themselves, but take into account what the Non-Rep's think.

Actually everyone will still be allowed to post, but only Reps can vote. So I think that's probably why people are holding off a bit on suspicions and just focusing on who they trust right now.

[Isabellkya]

Wilwa. Yeah, I realized it after I had already written it, and was just too busy trying to read to delete it. However part of it still stands. Because those who are non-Reps can easily slide into being inactive. They may think it not as important to participate fully, since they don't actually have a vote, and nothing says they should be listened to.

I think if the count is right, those of us left with votes can add those four with singles.
Wilwa, Boro, Foley and Celuien?


X'd with Sally.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Wilwa. Yeah, I realized it after I had already written it, and was just too busy trying to read to delete it. However part of it still stands. Because those who are non-Reps can easily slide into being inactive. They may think it not as important to participate fully, since they don't actually have a vote, and nothing says they should be listened to.

Hmm hmm. Which is why it would be good to get quieter players in there, since more active ones will be likely to talk whether they have a vote or not.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

let me state that both Sally and Lottie voted for you before you even showed up, which means they had no in-game basis for voting you,

This is not even true, Shasticle. You were there at the time, too. Surely you remember that tp was very much around before I voted? More so, in fact, than anyone else?

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Sally voted for you in her first post of the game, second over all. Loslote's was the 17th of the Day. Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

I trusted him to be himself, which meant that he was going to be manipulative, not manipulated. I don't mind accidentally putting a SoE in power nearly as much as putting someone in power who is going to let the SoE walk over them. You see, if the SoE is in power, they have to behave themselves. They're in the spotlight. If someone who is going to let the SoE walk over them is in power, they get burned, not the SoE who manipulated them. Better to have the manipulators in full view, being forced to take responsibilty for their own actions. No, I didn't - and don't, fully - trust The Puddingtom. But I don't need to in order to know that he ought to be in power. He ought to have the chance to actually make good on his promises, not hide behind the mask that is his lack of power.

EDIT: xed with Vanilwuffin and Feanorc The Bemoaned

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lottie

I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed.

Thanks for that "Nerworc". I much prefer it to "Nerwoblin". (Sorry, Fea.)

Now let me explain something: I am fine with phantom being a representative. What I was not fine with was him being the representative. (Or at least ending up with the controlling vote, which was more probable.) Somebody suggested that it's a good idea to give people power and see what they do with it. This is true. However, if one person has total control of the lynch, that takes away much of our chance of drawing any conclusions from it– plus, of course , if that person happens to be an Elf, then we've got no hope of the lynch going well.

EDIT:X'd with many; typo

[Folwren]

Ah hm. I barely remembered deadline. I can only stay to vote.

I see that lots of people have been nominated...I know little about most of the people who have only one vote. But I do know some about Inzil, so I'll go ahead and vote for him.

Oh, wait. He already has two votes...

Okay, only having a little time to glance over stuff, I'm going to go ahead and vote for Celuein. No, not 'cause she voted for me first, but because I like her.

++Celuien

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Ah hm. I barely remembered deadline. I can only stay to vote.

I see that lots of people have been nominated...I know little about most of the people who have only one vote. But I do know some about Inzil, so I'll go ahead and vote for him.

Zil? No he doesn't. Did I miss something?

EDIT: xed with Nerworc

[Folwren]

k, I just briefly glanced over the forty plus posts I missed in my absense. I'd like to suggest that we kill Phantom this evening. Using his own logic, the first death is a stab in the dark anyway, so it may as well be him, right? Plus, he's beginning to really get on my nerves. He reminds me of my older brother a few years ago, before my older brother became a husband and a father...a stuck up know-it-all before he'd really met the world and been taken down a few notches.

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

X-posted with Sally, Lottie, and Wilwa

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Loslote

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Nerwen, just 'cause Phantom has a huge ego doesn't mean we shouldn't deflate it for him. It would do him good, I imagine. He might be able to wear regular hat sizes again instead of having to special order them.

[Folwren]

I'm off to bed and I might not be back on for quite a while.

~Folworc

[Boromir88]

That's a pretty good spread, it's a little better than a 1 to 3 representation. There aren't any California's either who can bulldoze the smaller ones. We've got a bunch of Ohio swing-voters!

Plus I like having several quiet, and cautious, (perhaps Legate would say "less radical" ) representatives. This way some of the sneaky quiet ones, who I start over looking fast will in a more noticeable position.

With that, I bid thee adieu as I take the rest of this day off. May the lynching be fruitful by serving us an SoE head on a silver platter!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were. Since you have no immediate way of verifying these assumptions, you can not say that he is illogical. You can say that you disagree, and this would be true. You can even say that you think he is wrong, and explain why. This is, again, sound logic. But to say that he is illogical because you don't like what conclusions his logic draws is not sound logic.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, thank you, Orcs and Orcesses. As your elected representative, I'll do all I can to see that the SoE are brought to justice, and that the form that justice takes will be as amusing for us all as possible!

Originally Posted by Folwren

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

If that was Glirdan's game, he was a baddie for much of it, though.

Oh, and regarding the term "baddie"– I still refuse to submit to the phantom's dictum that we should speak of the village as "evil" and the wolves (Elves) as "good". Too confusing. I've been in reversed-alignment villages before, and we didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

The trouble when dealing with phantom is that he does have a rather notorious ego , to the point where he might well see their votes for him as perfectly logical. His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot, because he ought to know that wouldn't be terribly helpful to the village, not to mention his promise not to lynch people who elected him.

EDIT:X'd with Xed; wording and typos.