Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A practical note (as people don't normally read the admin. thread): My home internet connection died yesterday, so for now I'm dependent on any wireless internet connections for my laptop (basically my neighbourhood pub) and my school's computers during daytime.

Oh crap, some business for Hadanka pub, is it, then

I just have to say for Rune's vote, as far as it was indeed predictable (and especially if he has little time), it goes with the buttering-up stuff too. But again, probably any Rune would do that if he really is so happy about Lommy now - whether good or evil.

While Folwren also goes with the general anti-phantom opinion, she seems quite good to me on first sight - speaks reasonable and seems to speak out of her own mind (because she says something for example I said, but I assume she has not read that, given what she said about people who post long paraghraphs ).

There was something funny about Nog's post, I think he sort of started somewhere and then lost the thread, because the thoughts do not seem to come to any conclusion there. But hope that he is still going to have some net connection for more posting...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

I'd like to focus more on your first point. We all know tp to be a devilishly sly bugger when it comes to this game. What really has me worried is that there are two possibilities with his will-not-vote-for-people-who-vote-me-as-rep situation. First, he's really an orc who is just being plain old, arrogant phantom and wants the power and glory (which is probably the case whether he's orc or SoE ) of having been made almighty representative and is trying to find a way to subtly oust the SoE's.

Second, he's really an SoE and doing the whole double-, triple-, quadruple- bluffing.

Either way, it's his way of initiating chaos as that's what phantom does best. And yet for some reason, we all go along with it like the good little sheep he expects us to be. I personally feel like leaving him alone for a little while. That doesn't mean I'll drop him completely off my radar (that would just be plain idiotic), but I do not think we should dwell on the infinite possible plans that are brewing inside his head.

Originally Posted by Rune

btw I would happily be a representative my self. . . Power is nice.

I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

[satansaloser2005]

I'm here for the sake of clarification only. I'm at work, and shouldn't be posting at all, but I wanted to clear this up for my pie.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.


Also, glad to see that we stirred up discussion. I do so hate boring Day Ones.


I have to log off now, sorry. I'll be able to read if I'm careful but I really don't like being on the site at the office. I'll be back in....six or seven hours, I'd say, though perhaps not. Either way, behave while I'm gone, and keep being pedantic.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.

Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.

-- Folworc

X-posted with Sally.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Shasta

Not. Happening. I don't particularly think Fea and Nienna want their game hijacked.

As of right now, I'll probably give my vote to anyone (besides Phantom) who promises to try and get either Sally or Lottie lynched, because they're both pretty clearly trying to hide behind 'oh it's Day 1 I can do whatever I like and it won't matter'.

I wouldn't put it that strongly, but it would be indeed easy for a SoE to make that exact move - vote phantom early on based on his phantomness. Easy excuse. I also found Lommy's idea interesting:

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably). The fact that there were two of them makes me quite worried. It doesn't help at all that Sally is claiming to amuse the mod and Lottie said she's voting early because she won't be around later but she still made several posts after her vote. It's just utter stupidity. The only scenario that makes sense is that one of them is a wolf with phantom and uses his phantomness and excuse to make an easy rep vote for a fellow and the other girl is just using the opportunity to mess around for fun.

This far I'd be more inclined to find some fur in Sally. Just the way she seems to openly attach herself to phantom as an ally. Especially in the following:

Originally Posted by Sally

Phantom, darling, do right by me, okay?

And considering the following, a Sallywolf would be pretty safe with that strategy:

Originally Posted by phantom

Oh, and I also thought I'd mention that anyone that votes me for rep is completely safe for that day. No lie.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I think at least that it's ridiculous to make this into a disgusting politics game where you make parties like "you give me your vote, I won't lynch-vote you" - it's not silly but also dangerous: it becomes a war of clans where one's party matters more than their true alignment, which we definitely don't want in a werewolf game.

Lommy has a point here, I think. Still, it's more or less what's bound to happen, whether said aloud or not: a representative probably won't vote for the ones who elected him/her to power anyway, out of courtesy or just unconsciously, at least not unless there is really heavy evidence against one of the voters. Still, what a representative more or less instinctively ends up doing is entirely different from promising beforehand that "anyone who votes for me is safe".

Originally Posted by Lottie

No matter when I voted, there wouldn't have been any difference in how much there was to analyze.

Perhaps not - but from your own perspective one could think that you would find a good decision easier to make after a bit more time for considering it..

Originally Posted by Inzil

And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

This, actually, is a very good point. I hadn't realised that myself. Voting the wrong person for rep is loads more dangerous than refraining from voting.

Originally Posted by Lottie, underlining mine

Either he's working for the Orcish Folk or he's not, same as everyone else. He happens to be louder and less likely to be manipulated by the SoE. See, my thinking is it's about 25% chance he's evil normally, but for most people, I'd have to add between 5 to 10% chance of accidentally working for the SoE. TP does his own thing, not very influenced by manipulations - other than his promise not to vote for those he is representing, which doesn't bother me - as I am not a SoE, which lessens the chance of him voting for a true Orc. Since I don't have a chance to really look at people toDay, this is the least risky move I could make, in my mind.

Now, I think you go too far here. What you've got to remember is that the fact that he's trying really hard to establish some kind of cult around himself doesn't mean he merits it more than anyone else does. Oh, he's sharp and all that, but there are other sharp and independed-minded people around here too and I don't like how little credit they get just because they don't make such a show of themselves.

Originally Posted by Legate

But now let me sum up what I think of phantom's proposal, personally. From the above already you can see, phantom, that I am not so keen on supporting you straightaway. While the idea might be good if you are good, sorry, I mean evil; I am not too keen on voting you, mostly just for the sake of that I think there will be more people - possibly like sally and Loslote - who either for lack of time, lack of Day 1 imagination or even for SoE-ish hiding in bandwaggon reasons (as already Nerwen well noted, and I think it is a good possibility) - will give their vote to you, and given how the system works in this game (if I understood it correctly), that will give tp-representative's vote tremendous power, even if there are a few other Representatives, each with his pitiful one vote or something like that (and I know, it is obvious that you will enjoy using the quote "Poweeeer! Un-limited poweeeer!" once you get there). Again, I think it is safer for the SoE if the votes do not split too much here - if it becomes all deed only of one Phantom, then even if he were innocent (read: innocent of murdering Orcs, not of all other things), we get no real clues from the lynch aside from "the phantom did it right/wrong". So because of this, I think I will rather go for somebody else, to offer a decent competition.

A bit related to this: the rep voting is one of our few ways of looking for concrete patterns in people's behaviour, and if everyone votes for the same person - or even one of two or three - finding these patterns becomes infinitely more difficult.


EDIT: x-ed since Sally's last

[Folwren]

The following thought occured to me:

This whole representatives thing can be very revealing about who people are because from my point of view, there are only a few types of people who would try to get elected.

1. An elf or elf-friend, so that they could turn suspicion away from itself and its companions.

2. A loud humbug orc who only wants attention...and who thinks he might actually be able to do some good for our underground village.

3. The seer, so that he actually CAN do some good with his knowledge.

I think this because, being an ordinary person, it occurred to me that trying to get voted into a representatives place would put undue suspicion and attention on my humble person, therefore I'd jolly well better not try. If I were an elf, I might be more likely to attempt it. They have everything to lose, and everything to win, if you think about it, and who's going to suspect a bold stroke in broad wake-time?

The only thing that I think would induce me or another innocent into attempting to become a representative would be to gain power and attention and to actually think we could help the village by our intuition.

The seer on the other hand would be perfect to be in a representative's place. However, the blessed seer has the problem that if he is too open, the Elves will catch onto him and kill him during the sleep-time. Therefore, he cannot be open in his hints...in fact, he might not even be able to openly run for representative. But he still might try to get there.

So........that being said, I now see that it's rather weak. But at least it was a thought. I think it's worth considering when we look at the people vying for representative position.

Cross posted with M. Phantom.

[Folwren]

I'm writing a post about Greenie now. May be a while.

[Folwren]

Okay...so I WAS writing a post about Greenie, but then I lost it. *wry grin*

Should I start o'er?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Okay...so I WAS writing a post about Greenie, but then I lost it. *wry grin*

Should I start o'er?

I would personally love to read what you have to say about Greenie.

[Eönwë]

Just to tell you where I am:

I'm going to need to go soon, but I'm considering choosing Legate or Zil as rep. Possibly Lommy, if she can convince me, but that would be a bit too much of an anti-phantom move, which is just as bad as the original pro-phantom move at the beginning of the Day.


Still reading...

[Eönwë]

Though I have to admit that it's Boro that turned voting Lommy into a purely anti-phantom move. So maybe he's trying to make us not vote too anti-phantom (seems the general consensus these days, which makes it a bit of a bangwaggon) and vote him instead, who he portrays as the second best anti-phantomer. Or maybe I'm just reading reading Boro all wrong. I don't know if he'd be that obvious. But if I'm not, I definitely don't like what he's doing by trying to manipulate the Day (maybe even more than the phantom).

In fact, because of him, the anti-phantom bandwaggon now almost seems worse to me than the pro-phantom bandwaggon at the beginning. Or maybe he's just trying to make it seem that way.



And if both Boro and phantom are wolves...



Edit: missed words

[Boromir88]

Mmm, I've got a bit of a rushed decision here, as 6 is when I'm going to be away the rest of the night. I'm going to vote my rep now then...

++Wilwa for rep

I like her proposal and for that should be rewarded.

There Legate, now you know I will not be making Lommy a rep and you've got a few choices.

To respond to some recent posts than I gotta depart.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And if both Boro and phantom are wolves...

That's probably the scariest thing I ever heard this far, not to say it would be impossible - would mean seeing Boro's behavior in a totally different light - but I hope I am not as paranoid yet to start considering it too much...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hm? I don't think it was so strong.

I think it was - just look at the start of it! And the vocabulary! Not going to repeat it here, darling

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There Legate, now you know I will not be making Lommy a rep and you've got a few choices.

Great. Meditate about it, I will. (score!!!)

EDIT: x-ed with a Boro

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boro

I meant it as a humorous, yet pretty honest statement. Phantom would probably be more frightened of Lommy than I could ever make him...and really the same goes for me! She isn't all sweet lil harmless penguin lover.

For some reason, this makes me happy.

++Greenie Grenadine Little Orc for Representative

Simply because we seem to be on the same wavelength. I hope Folwren is elected for rep too, though.

Good night, see you tomorrow with some serious business!

[wilwarin538]

Before I do anything else I'm going to make a vote count.

I'm letting you know this so no one else starts one, cause I hate putting all the work into it, and then coming back to see one there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right? Not to mention, most of the people throwing suspicion around right now are doing so based upon the early voting and reactions to it! If everyone followed your advice (and not voted), we'd be back at square one as far as suspicions!

Well, in a normal game, why not give a Day 1 vote before 95% of the players have posted? We're supposed to be electing people we think will vote for the SoE's, so doesn't it come to the same thing?

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

This is my first representative game, and it's very possible that my brain isn't totally understanding it, but from what I can see the best way to do it would be for us to not give anyone more than 2 votes, right? Cause once they have 2 votes they're a representative, and if they get more than they start gaining more power.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Anyway, my point. Phantom is a rep now, nobody else vote for him. These caves are small enough already, I'd rather not have his ego take up even more room.

Hear, hear!

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Wilwa (she turned up at last, yay!) and Nog are making sense. Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Looks like it's my bedtime now, and since the deadline is 4 AM my time I won't wake up to vote then.. So I'll vote

[highlight++ Nerwen for rep[/highlight

Because she is independent-minded and clever and if she's innocent she can do a lot of good in that position - and if she isn't, a Nerwelf is, in general, such a sly case that forcing her into the spotlight wouldn't be such a bad idea.

I've thought about voting Nerwen, but I'd like to see more of her.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So how is it... tp has two votes (enough) and Lommy and Nerwen have one each?

I have nothing against those three ending up as representatives. Basically I have nothing against more or less ayone becoming a representative at this stage of the game: it would be interesting to learn more about everyone.

So for me it comes down to deciding whether to vote for someone I tend to trust a little, who is loud and enigmatic, who is very careful, who is hiding in the shadows...

I think you will take care enough loudmouths get to be elected so I'll start a new trend then.

[highlight++ Izzy for representative[/highlight

She is very good and I always have hard times reading her. I'd like to see her contribute more, already at this stage of the game and not only when the numbers have dwindled.

Hm. She's only made one post, so I'd have a problem voting Izzy right now.

Originally Posted by Mirandir

[highlight++phantom for rep[/highlight]

Ah, come on. Isn't there a game rule about not feeding the phantom's ego? And was no one else even in the running?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

You do make a strong campaign!

[Boromir88]

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him. These then are the options I see.

We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

To Rune: make him work for it! You know how the system works now, these politicians don't need to do much work anymore to get elected, with the amount of precious metals and gems people hand them!

Edit: crossed with Glirdan, sally and Foley

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Sallycakes

No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.

Originally Posted by Foley

We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.

Oh geez...I think that means it's time for me to hit the sack for a couple of hours before I go completely mental. Thanks ladies.

EDIT:

Just saw this:

Originally Posted by Borc

All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Made my day!! Thank you!!

[Boromir88]

Oh and before I go for lunch and duties...

Originally Posted by Glirdan

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Made my day!! Thank you!!

*bows* Glad I could make someone's day...I'm a dead orc walking for that!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.

No problem, I am not offended, if you didn't have the focus for reading long posts, it is understandable. It does not matter when you read it, the only point is that it should be in your own best intention (if the village's good is in your best intention) to get as much information as possible so that you can make your decision the best you can... But I know a lot about busy days, so if you cannot read a lot, it's understandable. Although that said, I think this day's posting was actually quite short, this far - only two pages (not even full yet) - I have known a lot worse Day 1s.

Boro makes a good point (if I understood it correctly) about sally and Lottie, I am not sure what to make of his rather depressive scenarios concerning phantom.

And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

The other thing I do not like is "the other representative could be ME, thank you". My initial thought was of a very bold Boroelf, even worse, Morgoth save us, he and phantom as two pals. But anyway, all of this does not make any sense, or I must have completely misunderstood it. I don't understand why you are counting with the fact that phantom is one representative who gets, apparently, according to your counting, half of the votes or something like that (or: at least more than just two he has now, apparently). What is it supposed to be? You say like all the dictators who come with the slogan of "balancing the power of the greater evil". I honestly totally dislike the way you put it, and like I said, it does not make any sense. My image was that we will all vote, we'll get let's say five representatives, some with one, some with two votes or something like that, and those will decide. You act as if we were counting with two representatives, which does not make any sense - if there were only two, then effectively the one of them who has more votes decides whom to lynch and it's done. Or, like I said, maybe I misunderstood you completely. Because this way it does not make any sense. At least I don't see half of the people voting phantom - not after what we saw now, with many people being against it.

Originally Posted by Boro

We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

That said, I don't have a personal favourite for a representative yet, but I think I am starting to get at least some ideas of whom I am not going to make one... but lots of time to decide still.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Izzy

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:

None of it was meant seriously in the sense that we must do one of these three things and it all involves tp. No one has to do anything about him, they can carry on business and ignore him entirely. The thing is, he makes it rather impossible to ignore, this is a fact I've come to accept over the years. So a sparknotes page of my post looks something like this...

Do I*

1. Help phantom get absolute power
2. Nullify his power by being an equal force that acts opposite of his desires
3. Remove his existance from this world

*Yes I used "we" that is because I always presume to be speaking for the conglomerate, but everyone should know they can do whatever they darn well please.

The 1-3 is more to be taken lightly to how when phantom's dishonoured everyone by his very presense, no matter what we do, he's going to be the attention. And I remain futilely optimistic about one day this not being the case.

What can be taken from it though, is I will unleash war upon phantom (or vote for people who will do it with me) if he tries something entirely unreasonable. Which counter to Lottie's own high-esteemed opinion of him, he is very capable of doing.

Edit: crossed with Greenie

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Legate

But I would like to ask, how am I supposed to play since TP already used half of the good quotes before I even had the chance.

Ha ha, yes, the first quote I thought of without prompting and decided to use it, but once I started typing I recalled that you had been heavy with SW quotes last time and so I resolved to use a couple more just because of that. I wondered if you'd be amused or if you'd be angry that I'd stolen your show.

Originally Posted by Legate

While having a topic to start with is better than bumping in the dark (sic), and I am sure it makes TP happy to have all the Day for himself, not sure if the way things have been focused on is the best to do it. But at the same time, it is at least a good topic for the start - and with such a topic, the way of people's behavior might nicely begin to show in people's reactions

Exactly! You know all of the old complaints about Day 1, and generally I always try and do something or other on the first day to prod discussion. I'd say it's working to some extent, in the sense that there are posts that say something other than, "Um, I'm here". I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Originally Posted by Legate

Okay, this is the one thing I really dislike - that's basically blackmail. It effectively means that "if you don't vote me, look, look, everyone else will do it, and then I will lynch you, because you will be the last remaining one".

You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

(more responses to follow)

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Boro

*bows* Glad I could make someone's day...I'm a dead orc walking for that!

So true

EDIT: X-ed with Foley

[the phantom]

Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably).

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

You do recall the last time we had one of these rep games, don't you? Given my track record, I'm the most sane voting choice there is.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune

I am not evil! I am just a very serious case of negative social inheritance!

If you're not evil, I can only assume you're a SoE. Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Rune

Lommy I really like. She is annoyed, bitter and straightforward, very unusual for her and I like it. It is like we have a new and improved Lommy.

What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)

Originally Posted by Nog

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

Oh, I'm quite aware of the game I'm playing. And if they decide to play it, the better for me, as I like my chances of spotting them better when they're forced to play my game.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

The only way to find out what I'd do in that situation is to make it happen, m'dear. Aren't you curious? Oh, and I think it goes without saying that I knew good and well not everyone would vote for me. I can always count on Lommy for things like that.

Originally Posted by Legate

I could also remark that I find it funny, though, how since several of the posts which pointed out the danger of having all votes for phantom, and especially after Lommy's rather strongly frustrated post, the "public thinking" sort of shifted towards the same paradigm of echoing it - like Inzil or Glirdan (and even Rune, with what I mentioned above). Since it became a "fashion", I expect that now it is easier for the SoE to join this "fashion", and not support phantom any more.

Yes, yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I try to create in stirring the pot! Behaviors to look for etc. My primary regret at this point was that there were fewer supporters around early on to give this thing more steam so as to make reactions more pronounced when the tide turned.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that. You and Sally treat Day 1 as though it were a perfect waste, and Lommy treats it as though it were not, and you bash her for it. Sir, we may all be 'evil orcs' but I'm getting a feeling that you're more evil than the rest of us, because you're willing to trample on people and their ideas.

[Inzil] agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

But it IS clear-cut, Phantom. People should wait and let their ignorance be enlightened if at all possible before voting.
And he IS right about not voting in ignorance. Absolutely he's right. To not vote is idiotic, but to vote blindly and out of ignorance is even worse.

--

Ex-posted with Greenie, Phantom, and Legate.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Yes, contest. And with no personal gain whatsoever.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

Though that was a kind of clever way to stop so many people voting for you so soon, wasn't it?

[Eönwë]

Considering voting for rep:
Legate
Zil
Greenie

Also look quite good:
Foley
Lommy

THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION:
The Phantom

Will not vote:
Boro (I have no idea about his alignment, but I don't like his whole "I'll negate phantom" thing)


I'm not sure about other people yet.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mira

Deal. And I'm holding you to that.

Well well, I didn't actually expect that in the least. Well then... I'm an orc of my word, and I will at some point in the following two weeks take a picture to prove I have kept my end of the bargain. *bows*

Originally Posted by Folwren

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not.

Why do you assume she did not read, and even if she didn't, why would that have changed her vote? I haven't seen anyone say anything incredibly compelling to discourage her from doing as she has done.

Why be so condescending, as if you know better? You do realize don't you that at this stage you and everyone else knows absolutely nothing, right? For all you know I'm the flippin Seer and Mira spotted something that you didn't.

Originally Posted by Boro

By your own admission you've never been lynched... The chance to be the first one to ever lynch the phantom is too enticing to resist.

Um, I believe this is the 1,314th time I've had to say this, but- I have never claimed such a thing. I was lynched fairly early on- in the third WW game on this site. Where does this "never been lynched" myth come from?

Right now I'm trying to decide if you are foolish enough to fabricate a reason for lynching me that is so incredibly easy to disprove.

All in all Boro I have not been a fan of yours to this point. You're getting hung up on things you'd normally realize were pointless, and just... No, I'll say no more. Just, you know, shape it up, or I'll begin to think these lapses are intentional.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And you think they would really be so intimidated by you? *raises an eyebrow*

The SoE fear being lynched, and if something is happening that increases those odds, they would most definitely become fearful of whoever it is holding those votes.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And while I agree no one knows anybody's alignment (are we really discussing this?!), you can make a better guess at somebody's alignment after 24 hours than when the game has just started.

I agree in some cases, but it still remains but a guess- particularly on this first day. And if the SoE are playing well early then your guess will logically have a worse chance of being right than a random vote. That's simply the way things are, like it or not. Don't act like those early voters made some sort of serious sacrifice by voting early. They didn't vote stupidly- they voted differently.

[A Little Green]

Boro - Hmm. An enigma, for the time being.
Foley - Can't form an opinion yet.
Glirdy - No read this far.
Izzy - Can't form an opinion yet.
Legate - Seems reasonable this far.
Lommy - Feels genuine, if only for her outburst about the phantom-voters. Not sure if I want to vote her for rep though.
Lottie - Not comfortable with her. I would hazard to guess either she or Sally is a SoE, but at the moment I'm moer inclined to believe it's Sally.
Nerwen - I feel OK about her at the moment, might vote her for rep actually.
Nog - Can't form an opinion yet.
Phantom - Hasn't really said much, has he? Or rather, when trying to think about the exact things he's said I couldn't come up with much anything (apart from arguing about good and evil and trying to get people to vote him for rep).
Rune - Of the little I've seen of him I'm more inclined to find him innocent. Could be wrong, though.
Sally - The one I'm feeling worst about. I think I stated reasons in my previous post.
Shasta - Feels genuine in his phantom-frustration - and then again, a Shastaelf would probably be frustrated by phantom too (be it phantomelf or phantomorc). Eurgh, I just started considering the possibility of the two of them being elves together. Not something I'd like to see.
Zil- I never can read him, but so far I'm at least not alarmed.

Not seen yet:
Celuien
Kath
Mira
Steve
Vanilwa

EDIT: Wow, x-ed with Boro, phantom, Folwren, Glirdan and phantom

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Er.. No you didn't. The vote train went rolling before you even showed up.

Originally Posted by phantom

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make.

I'd be inclined to believe that Lommy knows that no one knows the others' alignment as yet. She was probably referring to Sally and Lottie rep-voting before anything had happened ie. when they had even no inkling as to what your role could be - and that, I think, is a rather valid point. If we go on voting based on people's general character instead of how innocent/guilty they seem in this particular game, it's an easy victory for the SoE. Just saying.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[Eönwë]

Actually, I'm not sure about Zil. His not voting point seemed good at first, but it may well be something that could help the Elves. Then again, it seemed well-meaning at the time. He was also the first person to suggest not voting, which might be something too obvious for a wolf. Though he may have just been trying to lure unsuspecting innocents (or at least, true orcs) to agree with him, and therefore make them look suspicious (and if someone didn't vote for this reason, would also mean less orc-votes). On the other hand, it seems more to me like he's advocating thinking/waiting until people have actually started posting before voting (instead of doing a Sally), which is just reasonable.

In any case, even if there is a chance he's evil, it might be a good idea to vote him in as a representative to force him out of the shadows (both literally and figuratively).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

None of it was meant seriously in the sense that we must do one of these three things and it all involves tp. No one has to do anything about him, they can carry on business and ignore him entirely. The thing is, he makes it rather impossible to ignore, this is a fact I've come to accept over the years. So a sparknotes page of my post looks something like this...

Do I*

1. Help phantom get absolute power
2. Nullify his power by being an equal force that acts opposite of his desires
3. Remove his existance from this world

*Yes I used "we" that is because I always presume to be speaking for the conglomerate, but everyone should know they can do whatever they darn well please.

The 1-3 is more to be taken lightly to how when phantom's dishonoured everyone by his very presense, no matter what we do, he's going to be the attention. And I remain futilely optimistic about one day this not being the case.

Okay, Boro, I understand you now, but still I think you are creating some unnecessary polarisation here. I don't see why phantom - at least in the case he is innocent - could not behave during the game like any normal person, or, well, like phantom, but not with some "eternal hunger for power". I played several games with him where he actually acted reasonably, as much it can be said. But in any case, even if he acted like you say, at most he will be one fool among many other representatives (unless all other people go completely mad or start acting like you) - that is the advantage of democracy. Unless you manage to brainwash people that it is "A or B, nothing else" (in this sense, perhaps "phantom or us"), there will be lots of decent representatives among which one foolish phantom will get lost. And if he acts really totally badly, then he eventually won't get any votes at all. That's one of the advantages of democracy as well. If he becomes a problem, then I will start solving it, but this far, like I said, I don't see him neither suspicious nor dangerous: at least not until he starts getting more votes, then perhaps he will be. But you are making him the centre of attention yourself, where he has gotten two votes - okay, enough, but still not that much.

EDIT: x-ed with the very phantom, Folwren and others...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none.

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*

Originally Posted by Boromir88

On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him.

I don't like this at all. All this talk about power makes you seem like you're trying to sh

Originally Posted by Boromir88

These then are the options I see.

And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

Also, you speak as if the phantom is on his own team, and, while it is true that it might seem as such, in the end he will b helping one team to win. All this talk of "appeasing" him is pointless- we shouldn't have to bribe him onto our side. If he's an Elf, then he'll just be pretending to be, and if he's an orc then he already should be. And if it's power he wants, he should be the one that has to work to convince us of his innocence.

And finally, this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep).

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.


I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!


This, on the other hand I kind of agree with:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

I.e., we've been so focused on phantom, that we haven't even discussed other candidates or possible voting strategies, and by that I mean whether we want many 'weak' representatives (in which case we might as well just be a normal village), or a few 'powerful' representatives (which is much more risky because one of them could be a wolf, but could also be a strong force for good), or perhaps a mix (which is probably what will happen. But would that be good?)


Anyway, this is the post I'm on. Still reading.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*

How very thoughtful, and phantom insists orcs are all villainous?

And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

But today we are voting for representatives, not who we think are Elves. So, my focus has been finding the orc I want representing me and trying to stop the ones I don't want in as a rep, thus leading the inevitable phantom-centrism.

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.

You're reading way too far in between the lines with that one. I meant it as a humorous, yet pretty honest statement. Phantom would probably be more frightened of Lommy than I could ever make him...and really the same goes for me! She isn't all sweet lil harmless penguin lover.

I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!

That's how I like it too.

With regards to Kath, I've got a feeling she will not be making an appearance today. To the pits with you! Celuien will probably, she's usually pretty busy and quiet, but far less forgetful than Kath.