Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that. You and Sally treat Day 1 as though it were a perfect waste, and Lommy treats it as though it were not, and you bash her for it. Sir, we may all be 'evil orcs' but I'm getting a feeling that you're more evil than the rest of us, because you're willing to trample on people and their ideas.

[Inzil] agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

But it IS clear-cut, Phantom. People should wait and let their ignorance be enlightened if at all possible before voting.
And he IS right about not voting in ignorance. Absolutely he's right. To not vote is idiotic, but to vote blindly and out of ignorance is even worse.

--

Ex-posted with Greenie, Phantom, and Legate.

[Inziladun]

Very pressed for time, but a few quick things:

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

I don't know about a 'sneaky liar', but the mere fact of being the phantom merits distrust for him.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

This is pretty sensible. Boro for rep? Hmm.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

This is a good point as well. I don't really think tp should be lynched just for his actics, which certainly have an ulterior motive. Whether that motive is evil or good though is the unknown. I just don't want him, or anyone, having a disproportionate slice of power.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

I didn't suggest not voting as a practice, but I find it preferable to making a random one without examining as many people as possible. And I also said anyone not voting should be held accountable and made to explain.

[Nogrod]

Back and reading... just thought that this is important enough to say right now in plain terms.

We need a lot of representatives: not one, not two or three!

I'd almost venture as far as to say the more we have the better. The representatives need to make the decisions for lynching people and if we have only a few there's little to read. So let's not get carried away with this "who votes for who" as a representative, but how do we get enough reps for us to read later on.

And remember, many wolves might also wish to stay out of the fray and not want to get elected as the reps will receive the toughest scrutiny on D2.

Just saying.

[Nogrod]

Done reading...

Hehe. I can see Wilwa making basically the exact same point I did. And I like her suggestion of making a deal we stop voting someone on two votes to ensure we have enough representatives.

Let's also pick some of those who do not seem to wish to become one.

[Eönwë]

So, I was trying to read everything posted before I did, but it seems like I'm trying to climb to the top of an ever-growing mountain.

Originally Posted by the phantom

PS If you haven't voted me as your representative yet, please do so. Let's make history.

That would be like holding the record for the longest jump on the Moon- totally irrelevant. In fact, let's make it a Day 1 first and totally ignore phantom for a whole Day... well, actually, it's too late for that now that he's been voted in, but we should've.

Originally Posted by Loslote

TP does his own thing, not very influenced by manipulations - other than his promise not to vote for those he is representing, which doesn't bother me - as I am not a SoE, which lessens the chance of him voting for a true Orc. Since I don't have a chance to really look at people toDay, this is the least risky move I could make, in my mind.

Well, he only made that promise after you voted for him. Innocent mistake or a sneaky Elvish excuse for justifying voting phantom?

Originally Posted by Loslote

If tp was the Undecided Orc, he'd never have decided already. Surely you remember the game where he was Zeus, and killed his own Seer to even out the game? If he were the Undecided Orc, he would not decided instantly to align himself with the SoE, he'd choose whichever side was doing worst at the time when he had to choose.

If he acted (even remotely) consistently (other than attention-seeking, of course), he wouldn't be the phantom. Or of course, he could double bluff and just be hinting to the Sons of Elrond that he's the Undecided so that they don't kill him (yet). Or he could begin pretending to hint to them to save himself. Or... well... there's too many possibilities. We'll just have to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I must also say, there is one thing - if everybody unisono voted phantom, there will be lot less clues as well.

I agree with you about it being a bad idea, but you can't deny that it would be quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hearts

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.

It's true. People seem to tend to lose steam about half way through the second half of the Day.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

Definitely. This makes Inzil look good. Though, on the other hand, few votes means that the Elves can monopolise the voting.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Wolves? They're our friends!

Have you ever spoken to an angry wolf?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Well there's half of the SoE right there. That's a clear hint. Clear.

It would be quite funny if they were just playing with us like that, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I agree with this, yet at the same time, it gives people more of a chance to vote thus eliminating the "I didn't have time to vote" excuse. If this ever happens, then we at least have something to look at.

Really? We just get 24 hours as usual. Of course, the "I didn't have time to read the thread so I won't comment at all" excuse is more likely to disappear.

Also, an interesting thing would be to see what happens if the Undecided becomes a Rep toDay... er... toOrcWakingCycle.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Wilwa (she turned up at last, yay!) and Nog are making sense. Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Nothing to do with Legate, just having fun banter whilst throwing a couple sneaky punches. "Sauron's pet = Shelob" phantom said Palpatine was the "apple of the Great Eye," and "Emperor's cat" = I'm saying underneath that dark cloak phantom is mostly talk, and when it comes to cats you will see his weaknesses.

Think of it as a smear campaign paid for by the "Committee to not let phantom get elected. Treasurer: Shasta"

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So I think I should slowly start deciding about my vote for the representative. Let me see...

Boro - okay, but slightly weird with some of his opinions, I don't like his radicalism so much. If I want an opponent for the phantom, Lommy, who has already one vote, is enough, and Boro said something like that he wanted to vote her, which is fine by me

Go hard or go home. That's my motto.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"

By your own admission you've never been lynched, so you would never be a real logical option, would you not agree? But the bigger question what am I trying to accomplish? The chance to be the first one to ever lynch the phantom is too enticing to resist. It's probably a fruitless and wasted endeavor completely, as apparently lynching you is impossible...but never the less, I do not back down from the impossible challenge.

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

Oh and parting shot, SoE = Sons of.....EEEEEEEEvil.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Steve

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

See! Told you!


And no, I haven't managed to read the rest of the thread that quickly.





edit: fixed quote

[Thinlómien]

Reading and writing at the same time, so my apologies if I'm repeating stuff... I just got a sudden inspiration to go to sleep soon.

Originally Posted by Rune

I am sure that it will surprise absolutely nobody that I will give Lommy my vote. (whether she likes it or not)

I do like it...

Originally Posted by Legate

I am actually surprised with the really strong reaction of Lommy's to the phantom-business, while I agree, it's a bit scary the way she reacts so strongly.

Hm? I don't think it was so strong.

Originally Posted by Glirdy

I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I think that's just a regular Rune attitude.

Originally Posted by Boro

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign.

Weee! Strict Old Boro lectures on young women!

Originally Posted by Boro

Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom.

Am I really so scary? Seriously though, while I think lynching tp just for the sake of it would be fun, I don't think that's a wise course unless we actually have some suspicions of him being a wolf which at least I don't really have yet.

Originally Posted by Boro

Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

Somebody ought to put Dr Boro on a vacation. He is not himself.

Originally Posted by Greenie

a representative probably won't vote for the ones who elected him/her to power anyway, out of courtesy or just unconsciously, at least not unless there is really heavy evidence against one of the voters.

I think I did that last time. I think it's more about that people won't vote people who suspect them as reps.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Now, I think you [Lottie] go too far here. What you've got to remember is that the fact that he's [phantom's] trying really hard to establish some kind of cult around himself doesn't mean he merits it more than anyone else does. Oh, he's sharp and all that, but there are other sharp and independed-minded people around here too and I don't like how little credit they get just because they don't make such a show of themselves.

*loves her little sis*

Originally Posted by tp

Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me.

And you think they would really be so intimidated by you? *raises an eyebrow*

Originally Posted by Folwren

The only thing that I think would induce me or another innocent into attempting to become a representative would be to gain power and attention and to actually think we could help the village by our intuition.

Well I think an innocent could want to be a rep simply for the selfish reason of wanting to have their say in things.

Originally Posted by tp

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

I can come up with only one or two people in this game whom I would not trust to definitely show up and vote and be reasonable in their own way, so I don't get why anybody should vote you based on that. And while I agree no one knows anybody's alignment (are we really discussing this?!), you can make a better guess at somebody's alignment after 24 hours than when the game has just started.

Originally Posted by tp

What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)

Love you too, phantom!

Originally Posted by tp

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right?

I bet they are better than with totally random voting...

Originally Posted by tp

And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him.

Well, maybe not, but it doesn't make voting for fun any smarter.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

So then for the rest of this half of the Day, once someone has 2 votes nobody else should vote for them, that way about half the (what do you call a group of Orcs? A clan of orcs? A gaggle of orcs? A grunt of orcs?), uhm, half the 'village' will be representatives, and it will make the voting process much more interesting, rather than have like 5 people with various amounts of power, that makes me uneasy. Does that seem fair, or am I missing something (like I said, never played a rep game before).

I think it sounds good. Mostly we should have a fair number of reps (not just two or three) and they should preferably be quite well balanced in their voting power.

Originally Posted by Nog

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role..

Yep, good point - actually (I might be contradicting myself here but who cares) it just occured to me that an attractive course of action for a SoE would probably be just to sit back and relax and not to get his hands bloody.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Eönwë, I totally... loath you for that comment! *hu... punches*

Originally Posted by Nog

EDIT: x'd with Mira... *bangs head to the desk and cuts the power off from the computer frustrated*

Those were my feelings too.

Legate - sort of annoys me in the innocent way
Glirdy - awfully quick to concentrate the talk on phantom, otherwise ok (easily distractable innocent or a wolf trying to steer the discussion?)
Folwren - kind of like the friendly but cut the crap attitude of hers
Nogrod - aww good ol' Nog's back! seems like his innocent self
Boro - my infamous bororadar is saying more innocent than guilty but I don't like his phantocentric attitude
Nerwen and Shasta - you two cuties can be in the same cathegory: I like your attitude and you are very scary ww players AND I haven't seen enough of you to form a picture of what's up
Greenie - it's scary how much we agree, I like her <3. Her vote is very good - maybe even too good?
Sally, Lottie and Mira - annoy me to an extent but I have no actual clear reasonable suspicions against them
Celuien and Kath - not present but of course we forgive Kath because she always does this *ugly orcish leering smile*
Zil, Eönwë and Izzy - can't read them yet
Rune - is either good or trying to buddy me up, which would be disturbing

Haha, this rep games might really be my cup of tea because it's always so much easier to say who's innocent than who's guilty. I think my rep vote will go to Foley or Greenie - I could also vote Leg or Nog but I know they will strive to influence the vote even as non-reps so I wouldn't be too sad even if they weren't elected.

Off to brush my teeth and then it will be decision time...


edit: xed with everything after Boro's #106

[Celuien]

I'm finally here and catching up on the minutes. Halfway through... I've been reveling in the evilness of demolishing a camp near the mountain. Bwhahaha.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm finally here and catching up on the minutes. Halfway through... I've been reveling in the evilness of demolishing a camp near the mountain. Bwhahaha.

Yes! A true orc, bursting onto the scene and finding pleasure in her evil deeds!

At this point I'd say Celuien should be one of the leaders to be a rep. We'll see what she says after reading.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

At this point I'd say Celuien should be one of the leaders to be a rep. We'll see what she says after reading.

Why?

x/d with Shasta

[Inziladun]

Bah. Need to vote now, as I'm not sure I'll make it back before DL.

++Boro for rep

I still think there's something odd in the first two votes for tp, and Boro seems like a good alternative.

Maybe someone else will vote for him, too.

[Eönwë]

Night 1
Seer Dream



Day 1

Representative votes:
Sally |Orc| -> Phantom
Lottie |Elf|-> Phantom (2)
Rune -> Lommy
Greenie |Elf| -> Nerwen
Nog |Orc| -> Izzy |Orc|
Mira |Seer|-> Phantom (3)
Boro |Orc| -> Wilwa
Lommy -> Greenie |Elf|
Steve -> Greenie |Elf| (2)
Inzil -> Boro |Orc|
Shasta -> Izzy |Orc| (2)
Legate -> Nerwen (2)
Celuien |Orc| -> Foley
Phantom -> Celuien |Orc|
Nerwen -> Lommy
Wilwa |Orc| -> Lommy
Foley -> Celuien |Orc| [2- same Day]
Izzy |Orc| -> Wilwa

Representatives:
(3):Phantom, Lommy
(2):Nerwen, [B]Izzy |Orc|, Wilwa, Greenie |Elf|, Celuien |Orc|

Did not vote: Glirdy, Kath


Lynch votes:
Lommy +++ Lottie |Elf| (3)
Greenie |Elf| ++ Sally |Orc| (2)
Nerwen + Sally |Orc|(3)
Nerwen + Boro |Orc| (1)
Celuien |Orc| ++ Boro |Orc| (3)
Wilwa |Orc| + Sally |Orc| (4)
Wilwa |Orc| + Lottie |Elf| (4)
Izzy |Orc| ++ Lottie |Elf| (6)

Lynch: Lottie |Elf|

Did not vote: Phantom

Night 2
Kill: Izzy |Orc|
Seer Dream
Orc of Undecided Allegiance chooses role



Day 2

Representative votes:
Nerwen -> Shasta
Rune -> Steve
Greenie |Elf| -> Steve (2) [2]
Nog |Orc| > Legate
Steve -> Legate (2)
Lommy -> Nog |Orc|
Inzil -> Shasta (2)
Wilwa |Orc| -> Foley
Legate -> Foley (2)
Shasta -> Nerwen [2- same Day]
Sally |Orc| -> Nog |Orc| (2)
Phantom -> Legate (3)

Representatives:
(3): Legate
(2): Steve, Shasta, Foley, Nog |Orc|

Did not vote:
Kath, Mira |Seer|, Celuien |Orc|, Foley

Lynch votes:
Nog |Orc| ++ Wilwa
Legate +++ Celuien |Orc|
Shasta ++ Sally |Orc|
Steve ++ Wilwa |Orc| (4)
Foley ++ Sally |Orc| (4)

Lynch: Sally |Orc|, Wilwa |Orc|

Did not vote: -

Other Deaths: Boro |Orc|, Glirdy



Night 3
Kill: Nog |Orc|
Seer Dream



Day 3

Representative votes:
Greenie |Elf| ->Inzil
Foley -> Greenie |Elf|
Kath -> Inzil (2)
Legate -> Rune
Steve -> Rune (2) [2]
Lommy -> Nerwen [2]
Rune -> Kath
Shasta -> Nerwen (2) <2> [2- same Day]
Inzil -> Greenie |Elf| (2) [2- same Day]

Representatives:
(2) Inzil, Rune, Nerwen, Greenie |Elf|

Did not vote:
Celuien |Orc|, Mira |Seer|, Nerwen, Phantom

Lynch votes:
Greenie |Elf| ++ Nerwen /2\
Inzil ++ Greenie |Elf| {3- Same Day)
Rune ++ Greenie |Elf| (4)
Nerwen ++ Greenie |Elf| (6) [2- same Day]


Lynch: Greenie

Did not vote: -

Other Deaths:Celuien |Orc|


Night 4
Kill: Mira |Seer|
Seer Dream: -


Key:
-> = voted as rep
++ = voted to lynch (number of +s=voting power)
() = number of votes someone has in the same category
<> = a repeat vote (i.e., voting for a rep a second time)
/\ = a vote for the same person in any category (i.e., voting for someone as rep, and then lynch-voting that person- does not need to be consecutive)
[] = a return/revenge-vote (i.e., someone voting for someone who voted for them in the same category)
{} = A return/revenge vote in any category
|| = roles
Italics = the dead