Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Folwren]

k, I just briefly glanced over the forty plus posts I missed in my absense. I'd like to suggest that we kill Phantom this evening. Using his own logic, the first death is a stab in the dark anyway, so it may as well be him, right? Plus, he's beginning to really get on my nerves. He reminds me of my older brother a few years ago, before my older brother became a husband and a father...a stuck up know-it-all before he'd really met the world and been taken down a few notches.

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

X-posted with Sally, Lottie, and Wilwa

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Loslote

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Nerwen, just 'cause Phantom has a huge ego doesn't mean we shouldn't deflate it for him. It would do him good, I imagine. He might be able to wear regular hat sizes again instead of having to special order them.

[Folwren]

I'm off to bed and I might not be back on for quite a while.

~Folworc

[Boromir88]

That's a pretty good spread, it's a little better than a 1 to 3 representation. There aren't any California's either who can bulldoze the smaller ones. We've got a bunch of Ohio swing-voters!

Plus I like having several quiet, and cautious, (perhaps Legate would say "less radical" ) representatives. This way some of the sneaky quiet ones, who I start over looking fast will in a more noticeable position.

With that, I bid thee adieu as I take the rest of this day off. May the lynching be fruitful by serving us an SoE head on a silver platter!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were. Since you have no immediate way of verifying these assumptions, you can not say that he is illogical. You can say that you disagree, and this would be true. You can even say that you think he is wrong, and explain why. This is, again, sound logic. But to say that he is illogical because you don't like what conclusions his logic draws is not sound logic.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

How exactly did they "toss away" their votes? They voted. End of story. If they had sat on their bums for a few hours and then voted for me, the result would've been the same- Phantom gains two votes.

How is your vote any better than theirs? Let me ask you, what information do you know right now? Who has been lynched so far? Who has been Night-killed? Which roles have been revealed?

For all you know you just elected a SoE, where as I know for a fact that the ladies you are criticizing elected an orc.

[the phantom]

I remind you of a stuck-up know-it-all, Folwren?

YOU are the one telling people that their votes are stupid when they're not, and demanding that people see things your way. I'm merely pointing out facts. Again and again, since people are unwilling to grasp the points.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Lottie

If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them.

Precisely. I have explained my position logically and reasonably, and it's not my fault that people aren't following. For the 10th time- Lottie and Sally knew just as much as you when they voted. And oh by the way, they voted for a true orc. I mean- you can't argue with results. You really think lynching me would deflate me? *snerk* No, it would merely result in me dancing around saying, "Told you so!"

And by the way, I haven't even given the best justification for my antics and their early votes yet. In the end if I'm forced to say it I will, but the fact that more of you haven't backed off on this issue tells me that you haven't carefully considered everything about this village. Boro in particular- it's one of the main reasons I'm suspicious of you, as given your usual method of operating you would've seen two advantages in particular in doing what I have done and would have attempted to hint to me to the fact that you knew what I was doing. I mean, as far as "ploys" go this one is rather more obvious than those I typically favor.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot

I've already explained that one, m'dear. It was largely a ploy (which could have been useful if it hadn't been blundered into and blown up so early). I remarked earlier that I knew good and well it wouldn't happen, so how can you think I honestly was trying for it? It's like me saying "I'm going to leap over the moon!" and then jumping as high as I can. Was I honestly trying to jump over the moon?

I knew I wouldn't get massive power, but I didn't mind getting a bit extra seeing as I am the only person I know is orcish and I have no intention of dying early, and votes in hand can help avoid that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

Erm, what? I don't recall ever ever saying or implying anything like that. All of my defenses of my voters have been primarily a reaction to people seeing something fishy about them when in fact it wasn't that big of a deal at all if considered cooly and realistically.

As a matter of fact I don't believe I have ever even declared my voters as being trustworthy or true orcs. I have merely been defending them against a specific attack which I saw as being a perplexing stretch of reasoning. In general when I see more than one person grasping onto the same legless argument I am quick to suspect that something odd is going on.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That would be the assumption that he's the best man for the job, yes?

No, I was in fact refering to the assumption that he's an orc. Since he can make that assumption, he can logically draw the conclusion that Sally, Mira, and I voted for an orc. No one else can make that assumption, so the fact that the rest of the village doesn't accept his logic does not mean that it is not logical.

Also, Lottie, why aren't you worried by phantom's promise not to lynch those who voted for him?

1. That promise was made after I voted.

2. Well, it's pretty obvious that a representative isn't likely to vote for the people they represent. It's sort of counter-productive for those who want to remain in power rather than being mistrusted by the voters for the rest of the game, isn't it?

EDIT: xed with The Puddingtom

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were.

That would be the assumption that he's the best man for the job, yes?

Seriously: unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

So, there is some logic there, but in fact only Lottie used this argument. Sally voted him based on what was apparently a misapprehension, and Mira seems to have given him the third vote as a joke.

Also, Lottie, why aren't you worried by phantom's promise not to lynch those who voted for him?

EDIT:X'd with the orc himself.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, thank you, Orcs and Orcesses. As your elected representative, I'll do all I can to see that the SoE are brought to justice, and that the form that justice takes will be as amusing for us all as possible!

Originally Posted by Folwren

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

If that was Glirdan's game, he was a baddie for much of it, though.

Oh, and regarding the term "baddie"– I still refuse to submit to the phantom's dictum that we should speak of the village as "evil" and the wolves (Elves) as "good". Too confusing. I've been in reversed-alignment villages before, and we didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

The trouble when dealing with phantom is that he does have a rather notorious ego , to the point where he might well see their votes for him as perfectly logical. His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot, because he ought to know that wouldn't be terribly helpful to the village, not to mention his promise not to lynch people who elected him.

EDIT:X'd with Xed; wording and typos.