Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[the phantom]

Purely voting-based reasoning-

Lommy- The first Lottie voter. Uses all three. This merits an automatic pass through today. She also doesn't need to be given any rep votes, as she's already proved herself with them. In later days if she's still around she will be a likely rallying point (a safe person to give rep votes to).

Wilwa- Instead of pushing Sally ahead or raising Boro up, she kept Lottie tied for the lead. Not as obvious as Lommy, but likely deserves a pass through today.

Phantom- Definitely could have saved Lottie by killing Sally, but didn't. Possibly could've saved Lottie by voting Boro before Izzy cast her vote (would she have wanted a double-lynch?). Definitely could've lynched an innocent Boro alongside Lottie, but didn't.

Celuien- Put Boro into serious contention. A more subtle way of saving Lottie than voting Sally perhaps?

Green- First to vote for Sally. If Sally is innocent, then this was likely the best play to save Lottie.

Nerwen- Puts Sally even with Lottie and starts the Boro voting, elevating two alternatives to Lottie at the same time.

Based purely upon voting Lommy obviously looks the best, followed by Wilwa and I, and then the other three could be spun to look suspicious. But of course I'm not factoring anything else into this.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that.

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

First, I never said I suspected Foley. She was on my "under the radar" list.

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

(x-post Nerwen)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

Originally Posted by tp

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

Oh, I see. That's suspicious, but spending all Day defending a known wolf isn't? I say again: Sally and Lottie were both perfectly logical lynch-choices yesterDay.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

Yes, I do, but for different reasons.

[Nerwen]

In case I haven't made myself clear: phantom, I don't like the fact that you're talking as though you're now completely cleared by the mere fact that you let Lottie die yesterDay. Oh yes: "If I were a wolf I wouldn't do that". How many times have we all heard that one?

Your apparent obliviousness to the actual situation makes me worry about you as much, or more, than anything that happened yesterDay– it makes me feel like you're hoping to quash suspicion by sheer force of personality. Which is something you might even be able to bring off, too.

I do not say you are an Elf, mind, tp. I say that you do not currently have the luxury of sitting back and giving your impartial opinion on everyone else from the lofty height of a known innocent. Not at all.

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Okay Nerwen- you're done as far as I'm concerned. You're making no sense, and ignoring posts.

You just asked me yet another Seer question (Why did you do it, Phantom?). A question which was already answered completely and totally here. I mean, this is nothing new for me. I've done this exact thing before (in the last Rep game, in fact). If I'm faking, how are you helping the village by making it clear? If I'm the real thing, how are you helping the village by making it clear?

What you're doing can ONLY hurt this village, and I know that you know better, so I can only assume that you're not on my side. Possibly a bold SoE or maybe the newly evil Orc helper.

I shouldn't even bother talking with you any more. But because I'm a good sport-

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

If you will look back at post #72 I state quite clearly that my initial demand for votes had a chance of hooking a SoE, and the manner in which I described it fit with Lottie quite nicely. To anyone who was paying attention then, they would've known that already at that time I most definitely was not assuming Lottie was an Orc.

In post #200 I explain very clearly my defense of her, saying that I am NOT declaring her innocent, but rather I am suspicious of the reasoning that so many people jumped on.

Then in post #271 I say to Lommy that out of her suspects (Lottie, Sally, and me) I thought she had gone with the correct one, though I personally believed that she was doing so for the wrong reason (i.e. the correct reason in my mind was that she'd fallen into my little stunt, while with Lommy's reasoning I still thought that someone in her crowd was using fishy reasoning against Sally/Lottie, which is why I'm especially suspicious of anyone who suspected those two but put forth Sally as the correct choice).

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

But I'm not a SoE or a traitor orc, so what exactly do you want me to say about it? It's not a point that can be addressed in any way. The best I can do is point to my voting yesterday and offer that if I am a SoE then I'm a very dumb one, as at the very least I could've nabbed an innocent in the lynch alongside my packmate. What else is there to say?

But yeah, I'm pretty much writing you off at this stage. A true Orc would've looked at my Seer shout yesterday and kept their mouth shut about and just watched to see what happened. An Orc would've thought, "If he's for real then he's banking on them thinking it's a bluff. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to out him. If he's an Orc then he's trying to mess with the night-kill and protect the Seer. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to ruin the bluff. If he's actually a SoE then I suppose I'll just have to wait and see if he throws his weight around or leads us incorrectly and trust the real Seer will play it smart."

I just can't believe you're an Orc at this point.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Sally

And look at that, we got a wolf. Color me surprised and excited.

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

Also, does anyone else notice that any time someone questions Phantom too much, he ends up thinking they're a baddie? Nerwen has made several good points about your play so far, Phantom, and if I didn't have work in five hours I'd go through and point them out (again). That's something for tomorrow, I guess.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Good night.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

*cough* I believe she's only made one post toDay, my treasure. It is, however, indeed quite a furry– or should I say pointy-eared– little performance.

Originally Posted by Shasta

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Sally being innocent would go some way towards exonerating the phantom, though, wouldn't it? (Not entirely, however.) Could be why he's pushing it.

[the phantom]

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

Honestly.

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this? I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

(x-post)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

I think it's extremely funny that this is why you suspect Inzil and yet you fit the profile of this idea far more than he does to this point.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

I didn't say my vote made me innocent guaranteed. I at least had the decency to place myself in a lower category than Lommy. But sorry, I am going to point out obvious things about the voting that likely are important to anyone who is extremely familiar with my operations.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Honestly.

Not honestly. If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

[Nerwen]

In fact, phantom, your strategy so far appears to consist largely of the following:

Step 1. Do something suspicious.
Step 2. Claim it was all part of your cunning plan.
Step 3 (optional). Insist that only baddies would call your conduct into question, because everyone should know your plans are so very, very cunning.

Rinse. Repeat.

Ummm... you know what? Actually, I have no idea why a phantom-anything would do this.

[Nerwen]

I just want to revisit the Seer-question, because I don't think my first response quite covered the amount of sheer nonsense in that one post:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why– the harm I'd do by getting you to admit it is minimal. Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

If you were the Seer double-bluffing, clearly I'd be doing the village a service by convincing the wolves it wasn't so. Also, if you were the Seer, why would you even suggest that you might be double-bluffing? You know, like you just did?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this?

If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

Or do you say that your reveal was so obviously fake that the real Seer would know you couldn't be a baddie, and must be on the village's side. Then why did you make it?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

You revealed. There seems no good reason for it. That's enough. You were bound to be questioned over it, and you must have known this. You do have a nerve, mate!

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

*sigh*

Phantom, your latest post is just more of the same. I don't have anything to say to it that I didn't in my last one (that x-posted with yours). Except about the Lottie business. Yeah, you were all over the place about Lottie and Sally and what you were doing and what you thought they were doing yesterDay. Steve has already pointed out the timing-problem with your explanation that you were just trying to catch an Elf.

Been there, done that.

EDIT: name left out.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why–

So the SoE would kill me, duh. I mean, come on. Why else fake it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

It IS a disaster!! After yesterday I had the possible Seers narrowed down to FOUR (Izzy was not one, btw). I imagine by the end of today I'll be able to cross off at least two more. Narrowing it down by one is a HUGE deal! I mean, what if it's narrowed down to two people- the real one and a fake one? That ONE extra person makes a massive difference!

Am I the only one taking the Seer seriously?! We only have ONE gifted! We should all be doing whatever we can to make it muddy for Seer-hunters, and what you've done today has not helped! I mean, at this point they have to pretty well know that it's not me, which absolutely sucks, because I was hoping to be night-killed! This is cutting into my sleep time and work time etc and I was hoping hoping to die early, but I hugely preferred to be night-killed as at least that would actually serve a purpose and help my side.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

It's all in the manner in which it is done, m'dear, and who else is in the village. I mean, can you imagine any one of the players here counter-revealing on Day 2 due to a throwaway comment at the end of Day 1 by a notoriously crazy player? Your fear of a counter-reveal is downright insane, and insulting to the intelligence of the remaining villagers. If I had any fear whatsoever of a counter-reveal, I wouldn't have done it.

Coming into today I actually didn't plan to so much as mention my final post from yesterday. I assumed most everyone would write it off except for perhaps, hopefully, the SoE. The last thing I expected was to have a couple people immediately jump up and down and point it out, because as I said earlier, doing so serves NO POSITIVE PURPOSE! I mean- what can bringing it up possibly accomplish? That is why I'm very suspicious of anyone harping on the point, but perhaps it is my mistake to assume that everyone else would think this matter through so carefully, as they are on the outside looking in so to say.

Yeesh. This feels like a repeat of the last Rep game.

This is the way I assumed rational people would look at what I did-

1) If Phantom's an Orc, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
2) If Phantom is the Seer, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
3) If Phantom is a SoE, I can only assume he's trying to pass himself off as a self-sacrificing Orc, or paving the way for a future reveal. The best reaction would be to watch and wait to see what he does. I might want to question him about it, but given the odds are higher that it's one of the first two options the overall best bet would be to keep my mouth shut.

I mean, you do realize that the only reason we're talking about this is because you people won't let it go? It's an entirely useless discussion to have even started, and it's especially useless now that I've basically admitted I was totally faking it.

[Nerwen]

Phantom–

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

Stop acting like you're some kind of special super-Orc whose actions should be above question. It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role. However, I'm inclining more and more towards "guilty". (And, in that case, likely Sally's partner.)

If not, you're certainly not helping your side, the way you're acting. Can't you see that?