Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

Note that everyone in the story just seems to assume the dream has been sent by a higher power of some kind– i.e. not any of the actual characters. It's surely on that basis that Boromir undertakes his journey. So if it were in reality, say, Gandalf, he'd have been in effect impersonating a Vala/the Valar/Eru. Which I don't think was in his job description.

[skip spence]

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave...

It seems obvious that the recurring dream of this nature, obviously prophetic, seemed to be really important to the descendants of Númenoreans still, and especially in this time of crisis. If it was only a matter of asking about some totally random and unimportant thing, they could have sent some random bunch of soldiers and messengers, and not one of the Steward's sons...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Originally Posted by Appendix A

Earnur was a man like his father in valour but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms.

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'

Appendix A

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

True enough that's in the Appendix, where also is Tolkien's comparison of Boromir with Earnur, but I had restricted the context to The Council of Elrond, where there is the most extensive depiction of Boromir's character, in action as it were, in conversation with Elrond and Aragorn. His words don't inspire one with his love for his brother, but with his arrogant belief in his supremacy for the task. As you have quoted above (when I cross posted with you):

Originally Posted by CoE

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.

And Faramir's comment suggests a certain degree of willfulness:

Originally Posted by WotW

Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.

And as the passage in Appendix A says, in continuation from what you quote:

Originally Posted by Appendix A

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

That last line is a powerful condemnation of the scorn and military prowess which determine Boromir's mindset. Had his love for his brother granted him more respect for Faramir's style and manner, perhaps he wouldn't have insisted so strongly that he alone was worthy of the task. But he was found wanting, as someone motivated greatly by love in LotR would, I think, not be.

[skip spence]

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Well, see above. By the Númenoreans, it was still important to heed prophecies and such stuff, certainly for the educated people like Denethor. I don't think Boromir would be like "hey dad, what the heck is this stupid intellectual talk?" but he would be like "uh... I don't know anything about such stuff, but... perhaps it really is important if you say so. In such case, I suggest I go!"

[Pitchwife]

I'm with Legate and Nerwen here as for the matter of the sender of the dream being some "higher power" rather than, say, Gandalf or Galadriel, and I'm also not sure we need to bother Eru himself to explain it - the Valar, I think, weren't quite so detached from the War of the Ring as it probably seemed to those in Middle-earth, they merely acted with more discretion than in former ages, confining themselves to giving a 'minimally invasive' nudge in the right direction to things here and there (for another example see e.g. this thread).

Why Boromir and not Faramir? I suppose the final decision would have been Denethor's; and I think skip has a good point here:

Originally Posted by skip

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

My money would be on Eru, as the ultimate "driver" of the story, and also, as others have said, the "fate" personified that brought the members of the Council of Elrond together at that particular moment in time.

Originally Posted by skip spence

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

From Boromir and Faramir's words, it looks to me as if Faramir was the one who wanted to go, and Boromir did it himself as a "big brother" gesture.

Boromir:

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.

The Council of Elrond

Faramir:

Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.

The Window On the West

x/d with Legate