Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Galadriel55]

That's a very interesting view. So it's like Boromir put up a wall of pride around himself and didn't allow pity or regret to come in. But when he was dying, he destroyed that wall and allower his true - deep - feelings to show.

About the dream, I agree that the valar sent it, because non of ME characters seem to have any connection with it, and naming Eru is reaching too far up. I also agree that Boromir's pride is what pushed him to travel to Imladris and find out about something he doesn't really care about. Who could do it better than him - much less Faramir, who is obsessed with elves and wizards and that sort of people.

[alatar]

Great posts! Glad that I stumbled upon this thread. Anyway...

- The dream has no sender. It's possible that Númenórean blood imparts a sensitivity to the Music. Persons can 'hear' bits and bars of the history of Arda being (re)played out. But, you may say, this dream of Faramir's includes a 'do this' phrase that wouldn't come from just passively receiving the Music (like in Frodo's dreams). However, if the Steward's sons are hearing the Music, and seeing what is to come, they would see that one of the two of them will be 'seeking' Imladris, and so interpret (maybe fuzzily) what they hear as a command.

- The dream has a sender. I believe that Eru or one of the Valar have sent the dream, and earlier posters have made my argument. That said, if there is a sender, do you think that the sender hit his/her/its target? Did the 'intended' brother go north? If so, then why was Faramir so inundated with it? If not, then what does that say about the dream-sending mechanism?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

The dream has no sender. It's possible that Númenórean blood imparts a sensitivity to the Music. Persons can 'hear' bits and bars of the history of Arda being (re)played out. But, you may say, this dream of Faramir's includes a 'do this' phrase that wouldn't come from just passively receiving the Music (like in Frodo's dreams). However, if the Steward's sons are hearing the Music, and seeing what is to come, they would see that one of the two of them will be 'seeking' Imladris, and so interpret (maybe fuzzily) what they hear as a command.

If this is the case, I still wonder why the two of them had the word "halfling" in their dream. Just as the word wouldn't seem likely to be in the Gondorian psyche, I have doubts Hobbits were in the Music as known to the Valar (and by proxy, the Eldar and the Númenóreans). It is said in the Ainulindalë that Eru did not reveal all to the Valar, and I feel Hobbits were one of those "secret" things, mainly because none of the source "authors" of Bilbo's Books of Lore made reference to them.

Originally Posted by alatar

- The dream has a sender. I believe that Eru or one of the Valar have sent the dream, and earlier posters have made my argument. That said, if there is a sender, do you think that the sender hit his/her/its target? Did the 'intended' brother go north? If so, then why was Faramir so inundated with it? If not, then what does that say about the dream-sending mechanism?

I think the Sender knew what would happen in advance; that Boromir would insist on going and would get his way. Faramir was naturally more touched by it than his brother because he was more receptive to the idea that Gondor needed help, and the idea of Elendil's sword returning was attuned to his reverence for the past, and hope for the return of the King.

Boromir, on the other hand, wanted only to destroy the immediate threat, Sauron, and wasn't really all that interested in the King coming back. I think he only went to Rivendell because Faramir was set on doing so.

[Sarumian]

It looks, Denethor at some point came to the idea that the treacherous Grey Wizard was the sender of the dream... And I please myself thinking he was correct. What Denethor could never appreciate is that someone else was able to take better care of Gondor. I would like to bar powers far away from involvement into every tiny thing happening in ME. In my version the dream was sent by Gandalf but the verses were most probably written by good old Bilbo. Why Gandalf needed a son of Denethor coming to Rivendell? Simply because it was Elrond's land, where, out of Denethor's reach, the stranger would have paid more respect to His Majesty unmasked. He initially wanted Faramir to be the witness for the coming king. It was in vain, however, as Faramir's father did not believe dreams as other ultimate rubbish. So Gandalf changed his mind in favour of Boromir. He could have thought it was even better to convince the stubborn elder brother to embrace the king returning as he was able to put pressure on his own father. With the Ring in proximity it all came up even more complex but worked well in the end (not for Boromir, unfortunately, but I believe, Eru redeemed him). And if Gandalf appears a bit machiavellian this way, it only gives more insight into his character and circumstances. He also was slightly ruthless when he persuaded Thorin Oakenshield and Bilbo to go for their dragon hunt, wasn't he?

[Galadriel55]

I don't really think that Bilbo composed the lyrics and Gandaf sent them to the brothers.

The dream was a prophecy. Bilbo, as good a poet as he was, did not make prophecies. He based some of his poems (like the Aragorn one) on existing prophecies, but he was no diviner.

If Gandalf indeed sent the dream, I don't think he even thought of the lyrics. He sent the idea, the purpose, you name it. The words came out because Elves and Men of high descent in ME happen to be poetic/musical.

But even that seems unlikely. The Gandalf that "ruthelessly persuaded" Thorin and Bilbo is only half-canonical, if you get my meaning. This was the same Gandalf who was afraid of wolves and threw pinecones at them from the top of a tree. Is it the same Gandalf who defeated the Balrog? TH is a bit of a different story, separate from the rest of ME...

And anyways, I don't think Gandalf is that much into intrigue and politics to try to convert one of Denethor's sons so that he'd put pressure on his father.

I like what Alatar proposed:

- The dream has no sender.

This is probably the most realistic of the theories, IMO. But I think it's because the Numenorians, like Elves, had a bit of a divine side to them, not because of the Music. They all were inclined for a bit of prophecy here and there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This is probably the most realistic of the theories, IMO. But I think it's because the Numenorians, like Elves, had a bit of a divine side to them, not because of the Music. They all were inclined for a bit of prophecy here and there.

The problem I have with this interpretation is the timing.

For me, it strains credibility to think that both sons of the Ruling Steward of Gondor would just happen to have the dream at just the right moment: not long before the Halfling in question set out for Imladris on his own. Even Michael Bay wouldn't film such a contrived plot. Well, ok. He would.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

For me, it strains credibility to think that both sons of the Ruling Steward of Gondor would just happen to have the dream at just the right moment: not long before the Halfling in question set out for Imladris on his own.

But isn't this whole "councel of Elrond" thing all about the coincidental timing? Frodo & Friends come to Rivindell around the same time as Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir? I am not sure about Galdor since Elven settlements could be exchanging messengers all the time, and his presence thus would not be coincidental.

I do not have FOTR with me to quote, bt I think Elrond says it himself - they all came though none were called. They were all gathered by some force (call it "fate" if you prefer) to decide on the Ring and form a Fellowship.