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Old 10-29-2010, 06:16 AM   #1
Findegil
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Dwarves also belong to the "old world" as you call it. But only one single Dwarf ever left Middle-Earth going to Valinor. In addition I can't find any evidence in the books for Ents going to Valinor.

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Old 10-29-2010, 02:25 PM   #2
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Dwarves also belong to the "old world" as you call it. But only one single Dwarf ever left Middle-Earth going to Valinor. In addition I can't find any evidence in the books for Ents going to Valinor.
You can say that humans also belong to the old world the same way as dwarves do. Neither is really true, though. Yes, they did exist in the 1st age, but they were like secondary creatures in ME. the Eldar were the "masters" of Belleriand. Now, however, the Elves not only for the minority of ME, but they are nearly forgotten (by that I mean that humans and dwarves forgot what elves are REALLY like and made up a bunch of tales about them). Only a very small number of people (like the Dunadains) still remember and respect the Eldar.
About the ents going to Valinot - it does not say so directly, but LOTR does mention, when talking of Elven songs, that they say that "they will meet overseas". There is one known place overseas that is a good candidate for the meeting spot - Valinor.

I am not enforcing my viewpoint, this is just my opinion. You could think differently
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:37 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
You can say that humans also belong to the old world in the same way as Dwarves do. Neither is really true, though. Yes, they did exist in the 1st Age, but they were like secondary creatures in ME. The Eldar were the "masters" of Beleriand.
I think you're making a bit of a mistake by apparently equating Beleriand with Middle-earth. Beleriand was only the northwestern tip of Middle-earth, and once you get east of it, this Elvish dominance drops off. True, the Nandor/Silvan Elves are present in considerable numbers in Eriador, Rhovanion, and down into what later becomes Gondor, and there were probably sizable numbers of Avari to the East... but the dominant civilised culture in Eriador and Rhovanion is that of the Dwarves. True, Khazad-dûm's power waxes in the first half of the Second Age, when it holds suzerainty over the Edain-esque men by the mountains, but the Dwarves already had Khazad-dûm itself, plus Gundabad and likely the Iron Hills (cf. "Of Dwarves and Men" in HoME vol. XII). Meanwhile, in the Blue Mountains--abutting right against Beleriand and oft involved with it you have the mighty cities of Nogrod and Belegost.

It is true that The Silmarillion is our primary narrative of the events of the First Age. It is true also that it is decidedly Elf-centred (or more accurately, Elda-centred, or even Noldo-centred). This does not mean, however, that the Elves were really the "majority" race of the First Age. They were the Firstborn, yes... but with the rising of the Sun and the dawn of the First Age (of the Sun, remember) all the races are awake, and the Dwarves have had almost as long as the Sindar to be making a civilisation for themselves... and I would say they've done a fine job at it.

As regards the Elves and Ents remeeting in Valinor--you are correct that Galadriel seems to hold this out as a possibility when she takes her leaves of Treebeard, but it's merely a hope, as I read it.
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #4
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I agree about what you said about Belleriand. But still, elves were the top civilization of the time, even if they were outnumbered by other races. They sort of held the wisdom of the Valar.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:45 AM   #5
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Posted by Galadriel55:
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I am not enforcing my viewpoint, this is just my opinion. You could think differently.
Oh, be not afraid, I will do so!
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'Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farwell!'
That is exactly what Galadriel said to Fangorn at the parting. Since she herself is already on her way to Valinor, it seems that she does not at all believe that Ents would one day come to Valinor.

In my opinion the time Galadriel refers to, is Arda healed – the one think that Elves could hope for when their long lives ended finally with the end of Arda marred in Dagor Dagorath.

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Old 11-01-2010, 07:54 AM   #6
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Tolkien also noted...

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But I think in Vol. II pp. 80-81 it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' - but the Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory'...'

JRRT, Letter 338
Aman had been removed from the World, and I think the Ents were left to find somewhere within Middle-earth until the End.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:00 AM   #7
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I believe Findegil's right. Note that Tasirinan (=Nan-tathren) was in Beleriand, not Valinor.

The song about the Ents and Entwives in The Lord of the Rings does perhaps hint at them going to Valinor ("together we will take the road that leads into the west"), however if so I think that's meant to be wishful thinking. I don't have the books with me right now, but from memory, doesn't Treebeard himself regard it as a bit of Elven whimsy, rather than a prophecy?

EDIT:X'd with Galin.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:36 PM   #8
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"the time Galadriel refers to, is Arda healed "
It is possible, Findegil. After all, many things are supposed to reunite when Arda will be remade (for example, the Silmarils). However, I've always thought that the healing of Arda is a process pretty much similar to fixing, let's say, a toy car. You take it apart, you clean all the little pieces and take out all the dirt that got stuck in it, but when you put it back together, it functions totally differently than it did before. I don't ean better - literally differently. What would the healing of Arda look like? I don't think that even the roles of different rces are going to remain the same.
"doesn't Treebeard himself regard it as a bit of Elven whimsy, rather than a prophecy" but don't elven profecies, even whimsies, eventually prove to be true?
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