Aragorn and Arwen Are NOT RELATED

[Aiwendil]

Puddleglum: Formendacil's point was that Eowyn and Aragorn (likely both descendants of Elendil) may be more closely related than are Arwen and Aragorn (both descendants of Earendil and Elwing).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Puddleglum: Formendacil's point was that Eowyn and Aragorn (likely both descendants of Elendil) may be more closely related than are Arwen and Aragorn (both descendants of Earendil and Elwing).

Depends how you look at it. Arwen is only a few generations removed from their common ancestor, plus Aragorn must be related to her (and himself, for that matter) many, many ways– I mean, I can't see any way for Isildur's line not to be pretty darned inbred. So I think they would likely share more genes. (Not that anyone in Middle-earth knows about genetics, of course, weird fan-fics notwithstading.)

[Morthoron]

Well, Aragorn's son was known as "Eldarion of the Dozen Toes".

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So I think they would likely share more genes. (Not that anyone in Middle-earth knows about genetics, of course, weird fan-fics notwithstading.)

If you tell me how any generations are between Elendil and Elros, I will be able to tell you how much maiar is in Aragorn, but I'll have to assume that either only one side of the family is descendants of Luthien, or both are - Since it's kinda hard to figure out when they married their kin and when they didn't. I've already done that for Elrond and Elros: they are 9/16 elf, 6/16 human, and 1/16 Maiar. To be specific, 5/16 Sindar, 3.5/16 Noldor, 0.5/16 Vaniar, 4/16 Beor, 1/16 Haleth, 1/16 Hador, and 1/16 Maiar. These calculations are exact. I love math, don't you?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you tell me how any generations are between Elendil and Elros, I will be able to tell you how much maiar is in Aragorn, but I'll have to assume that either only one side of the family is descendants of Luthien, or both are - Since it's kinda hard to figure out when they married their kin and when they didn't. I've already done that for Elrond and Elros: they are 9/16 elf, 6/16 human, and 1/16 Maiar. To be specific, 5/16 Sindar, 3.5/16 Noldor, 0.5/16 Vaniar, 4/16 Beor, 1/16 Haleth, 1/16 Hador, and 1/16 Maiar. These calculations are exact. I love math, don't you?

1. There are twenty-two generations between Elendil and Elros (i.e not counting either of them).

2. Aragorn is definitely descended from Lúthien through both his parents.

Unfortunately, you can't get anything like an exact answer, because as you say we just don't know enough details.

Either you have to assume that neither Arathorn's nor Gilraen's family trees contained any previous intermarriages– which is downright impossible– or you ignore the number of generations altogether and assume the proportions remained more-or-less constant among Elros' direct descendants– which is highly unlikely, not to mention giving a rather surprising result. (Well, you wanted to do the maths yourself... be my guest.)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The most detailed genealogical breakdown of any character that I have seen is in the Encyclopedia of Arda's for Elrond, in the first footnote:

Though he is known as 'Half-elven', Elrond's lineage is much more complicated than that title suggests. He could claim descent from all the main branches of the Eldar, each of the Three Houses of the Edain, and even from the Maiar. To be completely correct, he was slightly more than half-elven: actually nine sixteenths of his ancestors were Elves. A full breakdown of his descent works out like this:

Three eighths Edain, through two lines: his grandfather Tuor of the House of Hador, and his great-grandfather Beren of the House of Bëor. He was also descended from the third House of the Edain, the Haladin, through Tuor's grandmother Hareth.

Five sixteenths Sindar, again through two lines: his grandmother Nimloth and his great-great-grandfather Thingol.

Five thirty-seconds Vanyar, through his great-grandmother Elenwë, and also through his great-great-great-grandmother, Indis the second wife of Finwë.

Three thirty-seconds Noldor, through his great-grandfather, Turgon (who himself had only three-quarters Noldorin blood).

One sixteenth Maiar, through his great-great-grandmother Melian.

Obviously, the same would hold true for Elros, despite his choice to become mortal. As genealogy is usually traced to the nearest common ancestors, for Aragorn and Arwen, it would be, as has been said, Eärendil and Elwing. Being full brothers, Elrond and Elros would have identical lineage, but beyond that point, the lines drift apart. By the time of Aragorn's birth, the drift is continental in scale and the consanguinity is so dilute, it would take an immortal Elf to even think of them as kin. But they are related — incredibly distantly, but related nonetheless.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So, is the topic starter coming back?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

So, is the topic starter coming back?

Nah, I suspect we all scared the poor feller away.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

By the time of Aragorn's birth, the drift is continental in scale and the consanguinity is so dilute, it would take an immortal Elf to even think of them as kin. But they are related — incredibly distantly, but related nonetheless.

Which was essentially my point, regarding blood. However, when you said "it would take an immortal Elf to even think of them as kin," I began to muse over it again, and I think there's something significant to be noted about the relationship of Elrond to the House of Elendil. From the time of Valandil's fostered childhood in Imladris to Aragorn's fostered childhood in Imladris, Elrond goes out of his way to make relationships with the Line of Isildur.

Obviously, this is partly political--Elrond is maintaining the only tangible remnant of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men that persists through the Third Age, and especially after the fall of Arthedain, manages to cultivate a whole society of Men that thinks and acts in tandem with his diminishing enclave in Imladris. However, I think it's more than that.

It is not, I think in keeping with the general tenor of this thread, a kinship based entirely on blood, given that there is a distinct privileging of the royal line, although insofar as this royal line is ultimately grounded in that blood, it plays a part. I think a much bigger element has to do with "the hands of the King"/"hands of a healer" element. As Aragorn says of Elrond, in "The Houses of Healing" "'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power."--our race.

Racially, the uniqueness that Elrond and Aragorn share is the blood of the half-Elven. However, I don't think it's Elven blood or Mannish blood, or the admixture of both, that binds them as a "race"--I think it's that descent from Lúthien, to which I am inclined to ascribe the "hands of the King"/"hands of a healer." In other words, my thesis is that Elrond has maintained a close connection to the Line of Isildur because in it's "Númenorean purity" it has come closest to preserving or building a "race of Lúthien."

Furthermore, I think the relationship between Elrond and the Isildurioni is side-lit in an interesting way by the relationship of the Sons of Elrond to the Isildurioni. Note, first of all, that Elrond isn't marriage to Celebrían until the early 3rd Age, and that his sons are thus contemporaries of the sons of Valandil. (Elladan and Elrohir, according to the Tale of the Years, were born 130 T.A., while Valandil son of Isildur reigned 2 T.A. until 249 T.A.). I find this interesting because Elladan and Elrohir are often seen, in our few glimpses of them, acting as companions to the Chieftains of the Dúnedain--to my mind, very much like older cousins, which corresponds directly to Elrond's assumed role as the elder uncle of the clan.

In this sense, there is a strong kinship between Aragorn as the congenital heir to the position of Elrond's nephew (and Elladan and Elrohir's cousin), and Arwen as Elrond's daughter. It's not a kinship of the sort to merit being called incest, but Elrond is definitely letting his daughter marry "in the clan," in a way that is much stronger than if--for example--he let her marry Gildor Inglorion (if you're willing to call him a descendant of Finarfin) or some fictional descendant of Galadhil, Celeborn's brother, or some even more fictional descendant of Celebrimbor. Again... it's not incestual, but it's definitely endogamic.

[Morthoron]

Excellent post, Form. I'd add to your rep but it seems I must first spread the wealth around.

Consanguinity aside, it must be remembered that Elrond would not consent to marriage between Aragorn and Arwen until the Dunedain retrieved the rightful kingship of Isildur's line. Aragorn wasn't ever going to get the key to Arwen's chastity belt until he was crowned. This is Tolkien at his medieval best, in that a kingship was absolutely necessary to seal a deal between the two Houses (one whose rank and lineage was even greater than the other), and this is an important element of medieval thinking which persisted all the way up to Queen Victoria's progeny (and the congenital defects suffered by the ruling cousins scattered throughout Europe).

The bloodline was indeed important, but nevertheless Aragorn needed to be worthy in a real, political sense, and not just some arbitrary joining of kissing cousins.