How Long Does it Take to Get to Valinor?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't know the answer, if there is any, but let me just tell my personal opinion. I got the feeling that at least from the point when you sort of leave the closest shores of Middle-Earth, time is not really the point - not by the Fourth Age anyway. Eärendil had his share of adventures and daily problems (at least on his original journeys, I can imagine him counting whether he still has enough supplies and so on), the length of Tar-Pharazon's journey is probably accounted for. But if I look at the description of Frodo's last journey... I honestly cannot imagine it being like "Hey, Gandalf, when are we going to be there?" "Fifteen hours. Fasten your seatbelts, please, and remain seated until further notice. At half past twelve, you will get lunch." The journey away from Middle-Earth is sort of beyond that. And it's not even, I believe, that you could determine exactly some "point of departure", like exactly pinpoint a location or time ("eight hours from leaving Mithlond") when things start to change. I would say that if you had some outside observer, like another ship following the ship which was leaving and then turning back, I guess it won't do either. I can almost see it physically in front of my eyes, if it came to recounting such event in the book, Tolkien writing something like: "...and suddenly wind came from the West, and the other ship was lost to their sight. And of those who told about the events later, some said that it occured at half past four, some said that it was hardly past three; and one sailor said that he had witnessed the lamp on the highest mast still that very evening, as if from far away, but no one else could verify his words..."

All in all, the thing is, at least in Fourth Age, as long as you are basically in Middle-Earth, you can measure time all you like. But once you are out, it does not really matter how long did it take - because you are not coming back, and also, your own perception of the journey will probably be such that you cannot put it into days or such.

[Galadriel55]

Before the fall of Numenor, one could reach Valinor like Earendil did. That could take days, probably weeks. After Valinor has been...removed? from the surface of Arda, the sailing is more symbolical and traditional then it is actually required, since not all ships may find the "straight way" to Aman, and the Valar deal with that. If you read the passage when Frodo leaves ME, it says something like this:
Frodo saw the curtain of rain open, and he looked at the light ahead...
But for Sam the curtain didn't yield, as he watched the ship disappear into the rain

This means that it only took the Valar's "permission" and a couple of hours - even less - to get to Valinor in the 3rd and 4th epoch.

Again, this is only my opinion, so if you have proof against that, go ahead with it!

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

Galadriel55, I would have to go with what you're saying. You can't really get down to the science and math of it all because there really isn't any. Those who would even attempt to sail there to calculate the distance, the Valar would deal with them if they are not allowed to sail to Valinor, they probably wouldn't even make it past the horizon or the "curtain of rain". It's a spiritual journey that only those the Valar allow to sail there can make, there's no real distance involved, time doesn't matter anymore. There's just no technicalities involved with taking a spiritual journey.

[Elmo]

If they weren't allowed to travel to Valinor they just ended up in the Middle Earth equivalent of America. Or if they were one of the lucky/unlucky ones they ended up in Valinor but the Valar then killed them with the mariner's last gaze being on the white beaches of Eldamaar and the great white mountains of the Pelori.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by xMellrynxMaidenx

It's a spiritual journey that only those the Valar allow to sail there can make, there's no real distance involved, time doesn't matter anymore. There's just no technicalities involved with taking a spiritual journey.

Exactly. Plus once in Valinor, you don't feel time - just like in Lothlorien, except the feeling is probably way stronger. You can't really tell how much time has passed.

[Puddleglum]

While the Valar do "take care of it", Elves & Men (as incarnated Fea) live in time and are aware of its passage so I favor a slightly different answer to this question.


Prior to the Downfall, the way to Valinor (by sea, that is) was a straight path across Belegaer, the Great Sea. From Numenor, it took Ar-Pharazon's fleet 39 days to reach Valinor. And we are elsewhere told that Numenor was closer to Valinor than to Middle Earth suggesting that a full crossing from Mithlond (during the Second Age) might take on the order of 12-14 weeks (give or take the wind).

At the Downfall, Valinor was removed from the circles of the world, and the world was made round, but it is recorded in "The Akallabeth" that ...

and yet the Eldar were permitted to come to the Ancient West ... Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it.

While nothing here is certain, my Theory is that the route to Valinor remained essentially unchanged and only the World was Bent under it.

In that case, those who were permitted to find the Straight Road, would still have a (roughly) 12-14 week crossing to Eressea and the haven of Avallone.

[Galadriel55]

That's an interesting view, Puddleglum. However, I'd say no to this because when Frodo departs from ME, it says that he could see light ahead, while Sam couldn't, and that happened withing a few hours of Frodo's departure at the most. It is most likely that the light comes from Valinor - where else from? especially since it is the light that only those on the ship can see (Frodo's ship went on the Straight Road and Sam didn't - obviously; so that is my explanation for the light).
Moreover, Ar Phazaron's juorney could have been longer than, for example, a Teleri's one (when they came to visit during the good times). He went to war against the Valar, and he was not counting on a strong breeze that would carry his ships all the way to Valinor. Although the Valar didn't stop him, they didn't help him either, whereas they could've eased and speeded up the journey for those who found the Straight Road.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's an interesting view, Puddleglum. However, I'd say no to this because when Frodo departs from ME, it says that he could see light ahead, while Sam couldn't, and that happened withing a few hours of Frodo's departure at the most. It is most likely that the light comes from Valinor - where else from? especially since it is the light that only those on the ship can see (Frodo's ship went on the Straight Road and Sam didn't - obviously; so that is my explanation for the light).

Well, I've had wrong theories before. In this case, I'm not sure if you are recalling the sequence correctly, tho. (from "The Grey Havens")

Slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the west, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air...

It sounds like the light you recalled may have been Sam watching Frodo msail away. Note also the "at last" suggesting that the voyage took an unspecified (but possibly long) time.
Actually, the Firth of Lune is something like 150 miles long, and would take more than a few hours for a sailing ship to traverse - just to get to the open sea - much less out onthe the High Sea.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Ar Phazaron's juorney could have been longer than, for example, a Teleri's one (when they came to visit during the good times). He went to war against the Valar, and he was not counting on a strong breeze that would carry his ships all the way to Valinor. Although the Valar didn't stop him, they didn't help him either, whereas they could've eased and speeded up the journey for those who found the Straight Road.

Quite true. The voyage (even by my theory) could have been shorter than the several months I estimated.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

While nothing here is certain, my Theory is that the route to Valinor remained essentially unchanged and only the World was Bent under it.

In that case, those who were permitted to find the Straight Road, would still have a (roughly) 12-14 week crossing to Eressea and the haven of Avallone.

I would think that distance and time from the time of embarkation from Middle-earth to the West could only be measured to the point at which the "new" way diverged from the "old".

The section from the Akallabêth quoted by Puddleglum continues:

....a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible that passed through the air of breath and flight (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond....

Ilmen is defined in the Silmarillion as "the region above the air where the stars are".

The bit about "traversing Ilmen" leads me to believe the traveler to the West would cease to be "sailing" in a conventional manner when they encountered the entrance to the Straight Road (if allowed, or course). The ship was only a means to get to the point at Sea where the gate lay. After that, how could time and distance be measured by a Middle-earth denizen, if one started to fly or passed through to another plane of existence?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

After that, how could time and distance be measured by a Middle-earth denizen, if one started to fly or passed through to another plane of existence?

Well, a Middle-earth denizen is still a creature existing within time. Even in Valinor, the Valar continue to watch the unfolding history of Arda as time flows on.

As such, someone traversing Ilmen on the straight-way to Valinor (if so gifted to find that path) would still experience the passage of time (be it short or long). Just as they would continue to experience the passage of time after arriving at Eressea (or Valinor beyond).

I don't think I would say that such voyagers are "traveling into another dimension (plane of existence)". That sounds too much like trying to shoehorn Tolkien's secondary (sub)creation into our own "current" primary-world "scientific" understandings which may actually be unnecessarily limited in scope.

Had Tolkien been writing a primary-world Sci-Fi novel, it might make sense. But as Eru (God) and pre-existing, self-incarnating spirits (Valar/Maier) are all REAL (within his secondary subcreation), I think there is basis for leaving things a bit more mysterious as Valinor was removed (and thus voyagers travel) "into the realm of hidden (tho still physical and real) things"