Lord of.... Moria?

[Galin]

Just to add as an example: 'Gandalf' is an Old Norse name, but nobody in Middle-earth would have spoken this name or written it anywhere... it is a translation of something, like 'Sam' (another translation) was really called Ban (short version) according to Appendix F.

Old Norse was still a language of the future in Frodo's day -- or that person the translator has named 'Frodo' actually.

[Mister Underhill]

I'm not sure that I'd go along with the notion that "Moria" is a name which was applied only after the coming of the Balrog. Moria, indeed, is applied very freely throughout the LotR as a synonym for Khazad-dûm, even when relating information about the place which clearly pre-dates the Balrog (e.g., "Moria-silver" for mithril).

I presume this position derives primarily from the line in the Sil ("Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazâd-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria"), which also seems to have some implicit support from Gimli's line in "The Ring Goes South" ("...under them lies Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue").

But I think the Sil line must give way to the greater authority of the LotR. The notes in Appendix F strongly imply that the name was given with, I daresay, characteristic Elvish contempt that had nothing to do with the Balrog:

"But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. But the Dwarves themselves, and this name at least was never kept secret, called it Khazad-dûm, the Mansion of the Khazâd..."

Gimli's line may be read in the spirit of "now widely known as the Black Pit, Moria...", or even, "now called, even by the dwarves, the Black Pit, Moria..."

My (admittedly cursory) reading of the notes on "Hadhodrond" in HoME XI is that that name was a "straight" translation of Khazad-dûm applied by the Elves when that place was known to them only at second-hand, and that "Moria" was what they named it when they came and saw it for themselves (but presumably before their fast friendship with the Dwarves of that place blossomed). The inscription on the door might even be a winking nod to the bumpy origins of that friendship.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

But I think the Sil line must give way to the greater authority of the LotR. (...) "But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice."

I've no problem with this approach in general, but considering what The Lord of the Rings notes above...

(...) The inscription on the door might even be a winking nod to the bumpy origins of that friendship.

... this much still seems a bit problematic to my mind. It's still the door to a Dwarvish realm, and this explanation, while possible, doesn't seem all that compelling in my opinion.

[Nerwen]

Ever hear the theory that Celebrimbor did it as a practical joke?

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ever hear the theory that Celebrimbor did it as a practical joke?

Not surprising, considering the Buzzer-Rings of Power he was infamous for before Sauron showed up.

Galin, my response is that the doors, while obviously the portal to a Dwarvish realm, were a collaboration between the two races and clearly made in tribute to the Dwarves' western allies, with a password of "mellon", no less. In HoME XII we find this:

The Dwarves said that it was in courtesy to the Elves that the Feanorian letters were used on that gate, since it opened into their country and was chiefly used by them. But the East Gates, which perished in the war against the Orks, had opened upon the wide world, and were less friendly. They had borne Runic inscriptions in several tongues: spells of prohibition and exclusion in Khuzdul, and commands that all should depart who had not the leave of the Lord of Moria written in Quenya, Sindarin, the Common Speech, the languages of Rohan and of Dale and Dunland.

Admittedly I may be reaching when I theorize some underlying humor in the use of "Moria". Perhaps it had merely by that time become the common name for the Dwarrowdelf and accepted and used as such even by the Dwarves in their interactions with outsiders despite its somewhat insulting meaning.

[Findegil]

Maybe the Dwarves used the name themself on the East gate as kind of a thread. The Lord of the Dark-Pit might be more frightening than the the Lord of Khazâd-dûm (a name of unknown meaning for a stranger).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Galin, my response is that the doors, while obviously the portal to a Dwarvish realm, were a collaboration between the two races and clearly made in tribute to the Dwarves' western allies, with a password of "mellon", no less.

That much is fine...

Admittedly I may be reaching when I theorize some underlying humor in the use of "Moria".

... but yes to me this is the part that seems to be reaching a bit.

Perhaps it had merely by that time become the common name for the Dwarrowdelf and accepted and used as such even by the Dwarves in their interactions with outsiders despite its somewhat insulting meaning.

Generally speaking we could have a matter of 'names becoming names' with the meaning becoming secondary or lost, that's true enough... but anyway I guess I find a certain measure of simplicity in positing Moria as the result of the translator -- as the Old Norse must be -- and as the reader would be familiar enough with 'Moria' too.

That said I would prefer a more internal explanation than 'it's the translator' -- though I doubt Tolkien wants to say that these two Dwarf names were internal to the period and just happen to resemble Old Norse!

Hmm, JRRT never really explained Orthanc in this light, for example

[Mister Underhill]

My argument was against Moria as an anachronism. I don't think this is the case, nor do I see the need to use the translator conceit to cover it. Glancing through various works in researching for this thread, it seems to me that "Moria" as a rule is used more or less interchangeably with "Khazad-dûm". I think the idea that it was applied only after the Balrog was roused is the anomalous one that you'd have to really work to prop up.

On the other hand, Tolkien, in HoME XII, goes into a detailed "translator" explanation about dwarf names used in a related context -- namely, in the inscription on Balin's tomb. I won't quote from it at great length. Tolkien notes, "But the names Balin and Fundin are in such a context absurd." He then proceeds with a lengthy justification for borrowing Norse names for the translation and concludes, "In consequence, such names as Balin, etc. would not have appeared in any contemporary inscription using actual Khuzdul." Or in any other contemporary language, I might add.

[Galin]

Well I would put it this way: raising the translator seems already part of an explanation concerning the doors -- in other words we seem to need to go there anyway, so perhaps just add Moria.

Again I'm all with you bringing The Lord of the Rings* to the fore, but that Moria might not be an anachronism is a bit different from inscribing this name on the door -- a name 'given without love' in any case -- though perhaps its meaning had become secondary or forgotten enough, as said.

__________
*have you seen my argument for the dark-haired Vanyar