Tolkien Estate blocks new Tolkien book - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bêthberry · 11-26-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

And yet, you went to the authors' talk at Oxonmoot because you wanted to to know about the personal lives of members of the Tolkien family.

Hmm. Do you have access to my inner motivations? Are you sure this was the reason I attended the session? After all, it was one of three sessions and I might have simply found this session the lesser of, say, for want of a more apt description, three evils. Or maybe I was curious to see the author of Black and White Ogres. Or maybe I attended it because most of my Downer buddies also attended it and at that time of the morning we relied on each other for mutual support, stimulation, and decisions.

Quote:

Ok - would you mind posting some of the stuff you heard there? Unless you think the Estate might take action

When I attended the session, I agreed to respect the conditions which the author laid out for us, which was not to reproduce any of the materials. I will continue to respect her request and my word, irrespective of any subsequent events or insinuations.

davem · 11-27-2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

When I attended the session, I agreed to respect the conditions which the author laid out for us, which was not to reproduce any of the materials. I will continue to respect her request and my word, irrespective of any subsequent events or insinuations.

But haven't things changed? Wasn't that request made because the book was due out & the authors didn't want any spoilers pre-publication? Obviously I'm not going to ask you to risk being dragged through the courts by the Estate (or '

THE ESTATE

' as I think we can all agree to call it from now on) but if you felt that getting the truth out there was important enough...

Bêthberry · 11-27-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

But haven't things changed? Wasn't that request made because the book was due out & the authors didn't want any spoilers pre-publication?

That was not the condition which the author asked us to respect. Nothing has changed.

As I said, I have nothing more to add to the discussion.

Angie G · 12-01-2010, 05:21 PM

I have been away from the discussions re Wheelbarrows for some time and, although I will not enter into conversation, there are a couple of things I would like to state.

All the material that we planned to go into the book was sent to TE with the first draft. There is nothing in that material that reflects badly on any member of the Tolkien family, indeed, we had every intention of using it to show the loving relationship of the two brothers. This was why I was asked to write it - to show the relationship. Some of the research into their respective lives and the lives of their friends and relations shows quite clearly the influences around JRR that seeped into his writing and into his art work.

Neil and I, on the advise of our publisher - at the request of TE - took out particular references to living family. This was quite correct and did not impune on the raison d'etre of the book.

What prevented publication was, in effect, the belief on the part of TE that we were not to refer IN ANY WAY to any fact, feeling, comment, belief or incident that was referred to in any letter by JRR. As the book was about his relationship with his brother, the situatiion became untenable.

It is very sad in many ways, but one of the most distressing things is that it is such a true book; it tells the tale of a family in turbulent times and reflects well on all concerned. I find it hurtful to the memory of both Hilary and Ronald that this book, written with respect at the request of family, should be hidden away. The papers could have been treated with far less respect in other hands.

As for the question of "rights" to publish and copyright legalese, it does, I have come to believe, come down to a matter of interpretation. Chris and Julian Tolkien, ADC Books, Neil and I would like to publish Wheelbarrows at Dawn as a Tolkien scrapbook for posterity. Tolkien Estates do not want the same book as us, is the bottom line.

The matter, as stated elsewhere, is now down to the Tolkien family.I can do no more.

davem · 12-02-2010, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angie G

What prevented publication was, in effect, the belief on the part of TE that we were not to refer IN ANY WAY to any fact, feeling, comment, belief or incident that was referred to in any letter by JRR. As the book was about his relationship with his brother, the situatiion became untenable.

Hardly anything shocking, or actually ''unusual' (in that we have seen plenty of books about the relationship between a famous person & a family member or close friend). And nothing that impinges on the privacy of any living person. And Copyright law being used to prevent facts which could not 'harm' any family member from being made public.

I've gone over the top in some of my comments, but put simply, I find the behaviour of the Estate quite appalling, & little better than book burning (yes - that is me not going over the top - if anyone wants to explain how this differs morally from burning books simply because you don't like the facts they contain please enlighten me). Nothing 'shocking' or 'intrusive' included in the books, so this is simply an example of a large, wealthy organisation destroying the hard work of decent people out of sheer pettiness, & attempting to conceal the (entirely harmless) truth about two people who have been dead more than a quarter of a century.

When publication of other books has been prevented by the Estate (the recent one on Tolkien's translation of the Book of Jonah, & Drout's on Tolkien's Beowulf) I've been inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but, sorry, no longer. They begin not to look like the inheritors of the work of JRR Tolkien (Elves, & Hobbits, Dragons & Magical Rings, that sense of wonder which transformed the world for us readers) but a big corporate entity which likes to throw its weight around & shout 'Don't touch my stuff!'. Lost all respect for them.

Nerwen · 12-02-2010, 02:03 AM

So, davem, is this you backing down on your previous theory?

davem · 12-02-2010, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, davem, is this you backing down on your previous theory?

(had to remove your smiley so I could use three of my own...)

Did I have a 'theory'?

I think I only went so far as saying 'At worst it will be something mildly embarassing such as......(& then made up some daft scenario as an example of such). Does seem like I was wrong about

the Estate

not caring about 'bland' stuff about Ronald & Hilary being published & so it must have been something 'significant' - seems it wasn't 'significant' in any 'bad' sense (ie something that would impinge on the privacy of any family member still alive, or reveal anything untoward about either of the brothers). I kind of hoped it would be something like that because then at least I could have understood their behaviour - even if I disagreed with it. However, it looks like they are just being petty & obstructive & pretty heartless overall.

Or to put it another way, previously I would have assigned the Estate to The Shire. Now I think they should be assigned to Orthanc, but heading East....

Morthoron · 12-02-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

I've gone over the top in some of my comments, but put simply, I find the behaviour of the Estate quite appalling, & little better than book burning (yes - that is me not going over the top - if anyone wants to explain how this differs morally from burning books simply because you don't like the facts they contain please enlighten me). Nothing 'shocking' or 'intrusive' included in the books, so this is simply an example of a large, wealthy organisation destroying the hard work of decent people out of sheer pettiness, & attempting to conceal the (entirely harmless) truth about two people who have been dead more than a quarter of a century.

...Lost all respect for them.

Hear, hear! I've already posted my disdain for this contemptible act on the part of TE in this thread. I just wanted to reiterate it.

Done.

davem · 12-03-2010, 08:21 AM

I know we've all absorbed the message that we should be grateful to Christopher Tolkien for making his father's unpublished writings available & obviously we've gained a massive amount through the work he's done. That said, it could equally be argued that he has been very restrictive in terms of what he has allowed to be published & over who has had access to it.

This really comes down to JRR Tolkien's status as a writer - was Tolkien simply another fantasy author, or should he be ranked alongside the literary giants of the 20th century? If, as I think, Tolkien was a major literary artist then there's a very big question mark over the way access to his archive is being restricted. Full access is unlikely to be granted for many years - if at all, given that much of it is in the form of manuscripts/letters/diaries in the possession of the family. Even when it is out of copyright it could still remain locked away in perpetuo. In other words, I'm beginning to have my doubts as to whether these documents will ever be bequeathed to the nation/a museum. If, as some individuals/organisations are pushing for, copyright is extended still further - some even wanting it extended indefinitely - then we could see even the documents in possession of others (as with these letters to Hilary Tolkien) never seeing the light of day.

If we had a situation where copyright ran in such a way, & an archive of unpublished personal papers/poems/plays by, say, Shakespeare was in the possession of one person, who only published what he wanted, when he wanted, in the form he wanted (with whatever excisions he decided on) & only allowed access to the rest of the archive to those he 'approved' of (whether these were the best/most informed/most competent individuals or not), & laid down draconian restrictions on what they could publish, & in some cases agreeing to permit publication & then changing his mind, how 'grateful' would we feel? Somewhat, given that without his authorisation we would have nothing at all, but also we'd be quite seriously miffed (imo) that the work of a literary artist of major significance was accessible only at the whim of this copyright holder.

To use copyright law in this way - to actually prevent an author discussing the relationship between two long dead brothers (with the full permission of the family of one of those brothers), when nothing intrusive or hurtful is involved, is pretty much beyond shocking - to the point that I'm starting to feel that any writer or academic that has to do with the Estate at the present time should seriously examine their consciences.

12-02-2010, 02:03 AM	#6
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	So, davem, is this you backing down on your previous theory? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

12-03-2010, 08:21 AM	#9
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I know we've all absorbed the message that we should be grateful to Christopher Tolkien for making his father's unpublished writings available & obviously we've gained a massive amount through the work he's done. That said, it could equally be argued that he has been very restrictive in terms of what he has allowed to be published & over who has had access to it. This really comes down to JRR Tolkien's status as a writer - was Tolkien simply another fantasy author, or should he be ranked alongside the literary giants of the 20th century? If, as I think, Tolkien was a major literary artist then there's a very big question mark over the way access to his archive is being restricted. Full access is unlikely to be granted for many years - if at all, given that much of it is in the form of manuscripts/letters/diaries in the possession of the family. Even when it is out of copyright it could still remain locked away in perpetuo. In other words, I'm beginning to have my doubts as to whether these documents will ever be bequeathed to the nation/a museum. If, as some individuals/organisations are pushing for, copyright is extended still further - some even wanting it extended indefinitely - then we could see even the documents in possession of others (as with these letters to Hilary Tolkien) never seeing the light of day. If we had a situation where copyright ran in such a way, & an archive of unpublished personal papers/poems/plays by, say, Shakespeare was in the possession of one person, who only published what he wanted, when he wanted, in the form he wanted (with whatever excisions he decided on) & only allowed access to the rest of the archive to those he 'approved' of (whether these were the best/most informed/most competent individuals or not), & laid down draconian restrictions on what they could publish, & in some cases agreeing to permit publication & then changing his mind, how 'grateful' would we feel? Somewhat, given that without his authorisation we would have nothing at all, but also we'd be quite seriously miffed (imo) that the work of a literary artist of major significance was accessible only at the whim of this copyright holder. To use copyright law in this way - to actually prevent an author discussing the relationship between two long dead brothers (with the full permission of the family of one of those brothers), when nothing intrusive or hurtful is involved, is pretty much beyond shocking - to the point that I'm starting to feel that any writer or academic that has to do with the Estate at the present time should seriously examine their consciences. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

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12-01-2010, 05:21 PM	#4
Angie G Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Middle-England Posts: 3	I have been away from the discussions re Wheelbarrows for some time and, although I will not enter into conversation, there are a couple of things I would like to state. All the material that we planned to go into the book was sent to TE with the first draft. There is nothing in that material that reflects badly on any member of the Tolkien family, indeed, we had every intention of using it to show the loving relationship of the two brothers. This was why I was asked to write it - to show the relationship. Some of the research into their respective lives and the lives of their friends and relations shows quite clearly the influences around JRR that seeped into his writing and into his art work. Neil and I, on the advise of our publisher - at the request of TE - took out particular references to living family. This was quite correct and did not impune on the raison d'etre of the book. What prevented publication was, in effect, the belief on the part of TE that we were not to refer IN ANY WAY to any fact, feeling, comment, belief or incident that was referred to in any letter by JRR. As the book was about his relationship with his brother, the situatiion became untenable. It is very sad in many ways, but one of the most distressing things is that it is such a true book; it tells the tale of a family in turbulent times and reflects well on all concerned. I find it hurtful to the memory of both Hilary and Ronald that this book, written with respect at the request of family, should be hidden away. The papers could have been treated with far less respect in other hands. As for the question of "rights" to publish and copyright legalese, it does, I have come to believe, come down to a matter of interpretation. Chris and Julian Tolkien, ADC Books, Neil and I would like to publish Wheelbarrows at Dawn as a Tolkien scrapbook for posterity. Tolkien Estates do not want the same book as us, is the bottom line. The matter, as stated elsewhere, is now down to the Tolkien family.I can do no more.