WW: LXXXV - The Lost Philosophers of Maiar

[Inziladun]

Interesting kill choices, I think. Kath, who voted for me, and Ozban, who followed my vote for Nessa. Why them?

[Valier]

could definately be the wolves trying to frame you Inzil....or a clever wolfish ruse by you, and ur fellows to draw attention away from you, since you had a few votes against you yesterday.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, now that was evil. Whoever had killed Ozban is going to respond to me.

Aside from that, let's see why those two have been killed. Zil had already suggested something about their votes, but since I haven't been around when the votes were cast, I need to go around through them to see myself. I am thinking, however, that those things like that somebody voted for somebody are in fact rather rarely reasons for killing somebody. Not by themselves. Yes, somebody might have been trying to frame Inzil by killing somebody who voted him, but the pack would have needed at least one more reason, I believe. Or at least I would have expected so. That said, the reason can very well be "because they were a quiet kill". In this game, though - especially with such amount of kills - I would expect the WWs to go straight for whomever they thought might be the Seer.

That's not to say that Zil's post didn't make me paranoid about him instantly, quite the opposite. Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird. Of course, it can be just stating the obvious of an Ordo who is just stating facts, and in fact, that's what innocents often do, as they have no calculativeness behind their statements. They often end up lynched for that as well. Nonetheless, paranoid it makes me, but I am not going to put any weight to it, just because of what I have said just now.

I recall there was some question some of you have asked me yesterDay when I wasn't present, I am going to seek it out and quote it and reply at the same time when I will try to check what else was there about Ozban and Kath. Will be back in a short while.

EDIT: x-ed with Valier

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Come, now. Can't I be both?

There's other stuff that happened after I voted that invites scrutiny, mainly the Sally-wagon. What were you lot thinking?

[Rikae]

That Sally-wagon does need a look. It's the sort of thing that has me saying "innocents couldn't possibly blunder so badly" but then again, if all my years of WW have taught me anything, it's that innocents always can.

Still would like to look closer, though.

Kath's death was a surprise to me, as I was starting to suspect her.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What were you lot thinking?

I think we had quite a good reason, she brought forward a suggestion that no innocent should ever bring up. The idea that the Cobbler could send in their own name and the wolves would then know who he is. When I first saw it I hoped that the large size of her post would maybe stop the Cobbler/Wolves from reading it too closely and getting the idea. But then Agan went and brought a lot of attention to it, guaranteeing that the baddies saw it (so the wolves may have assumed the name they received belongs to their Cobbler). We just need to hope the Cobbler didn't do it, and the Wolves have the wrong name.

Anyway, I can't come on much more tonight, and school starts for me tomorrow (and I have work immediately after school). I'll try to come back on again in a couple hours with more thoughts, and hopefully can pop on to vote tomorrow at school.

x'ed with Rikae

[Rikae]

Did she? I didn't even see that, but if she did, it's not as if it was her idea. Mac-cobbler did that in a game I think she was in as well as several others here. Hmm.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's not to say that Zil's post didn't make me paranoid about him instantly, quite the opposite. Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Actually, I got a good feeling about him from it. As a wolf, I would expect Zil not to draw quite that much attention to that. As an innocent, it's something I could see him doing - I get more of a "that's interesting" (I'm envisioning that the way Jack Sparrow said it ) type of feel than a "this must make me innocent" type of feel.

EDIT: xed with Rikae

[Loslote]

As for the Sally wagon, there was a lot of xing going on. For instance, at the time I voted, I thought only one other person had voted for her, and that a while ago. I also noticed a lot of people marking their cross posts, so it's possible that very few of us actually knew what we were doing. I don't think there was an intentional "let's all gand up and kill Sally" bandwagon, more of an "I'll vote Sally, and maybe other people will too, maybe not" bandwagon. If that makes any sense.

EDIT: xed with Skip

EDITEDIT: Legate's right; I crossed with Eomer, not Skip

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Initial thoughts: Ozban is an interesting kill as players tend to leave those who haven't played for a while alive - unless there's a good reason. Definite Seer hint in there, eh? Eh?

If you find that hint in Ozzy's post, I am going to give you a medal. (And then probably lynch you, since I can't see an innocent seeing a Seer see-saw see... something there.)

Originally Posted by Loslote

As for the Sally wagon, there was a lot of xing going on. For instance, at the time I voted, I thought only one other person had voted for her, and that a while ago. I also noticed a lot of people marking their cross posts, so it's possible that very few of us actually knew what we were doing. I don't think there was an intentional "let's all gand up and kill Sally" bandwagon, more of an "I'll vote Sally, and maybe other people will too, maybe not" bandwagon. If that makes any sense.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me (just hope that it is not so that all WWs voted for sally and x-posted at the same point, which would be terribly funny, but it's known to have happened at least twice in my last game) and also makes Lottie sound innocent.

But okay, now I am going to post this and if I haven't x-posted with anybody (or if I did but they said nothing of immediate interest to me), I will REALLY go to sleep!

EDIT: going No offence to the concerned one, it was a good enough post, but not needing an immediate comment

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Initial thoughts: Ozban is an interesting kill as players tend to leave those who haven't played for a while alive - unless there's a good reason. Definite Seer hint in there, eh? Eh?

I'd read less into Kath's death, because the urge to kill Kath is completely understandable at all times. (I will have a look at Kath, of course)

Ok, not sure why certain people today find the lynching of Sally an obvious blunder - we had no idea who to string up! I didn't vote for her, but I'm not going to just assume that evil folk were involved in her slaying. Can people explain what was so wrong about choosing Sally (without referring to hindsight, naturally).

Also, this Wilwa-Agan argument right at the end of the day confuses me. Need to re-read, and probably have people explain it to me again. Slowly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I think we had quite a good reason, she brought forward a suggestion that no innocent should ever bring up. The idea that the Cobbler could send in their own name and the wolves would then know who he is. When I first saw it I hoped that the large size of her post would maybe stop the Cobbler/Wolves from reading it too closely and getting the idea. But then Agan went and brought a lot of attention to it, guaranteeing that the baddies saw it (so the wolves may have assumed the name they received belongs to their Cobbler). We just need to hope the Cobbler didn't do it, and the Wolves have the wrong name.

Actually, and as Rikae had already said, this thing had been used by Cobblers in several games, I believe, or I think I remember being in more than one. It was in fact one thing that was on my mind since the start of Day 1 and I was just waiting who is going to say that. I was quite surprised when by the time I have been around people actually haven't started tossing the idea around, I might have hoped that nobody is going to mention it.

But that said, I can see the reason of voting sally because of that. However (and once again when I am fresh, I have to take a look at the bandwaggon for her, to see how big it actually was and who was there), I am inclined to believe that some WWs might have very likely mingled with the crowd there.

And totally random addition, Rikae creeps me out.

EDIT: x-ed since my last once again, and I would like to see what "skip" you crossed with, Lottie

[Cailín]

Very interesting. Just read the entire thread. I thought Sally looked fairly innocent. Then again, she said she liked me and I am easily swayed by such things.

Looking at that particular bandwagon, Loslote looks shady: she planted suspicion against Sally from her very first post (based on a knee jerk reaction even though Sally really only said she could not contribute much) making it an easy vote with no substance at all.

I am not going to pretend that with so little evidence and with so many people I can already identify the wolves, so I am still very much in touchy-feely-guessy mode.

Right now, I have a good feeling about Legate, Lommy, Rikae and strangely enough about Inzil, though he seems somewhat paranoid. Reason tells me Boromir88, Eomer and Kitanna are innocent. Pure insanity tells me Aganzir probably is worth keeping alive as well.

The wolves are almost certainly A Little Green, Macalaure, Loslote and Nessa (confidence is key).

I hope this information will suffice for those interested in forming an opinion on my part in this plot or building a case against me. I will return later or tomorrow with something more substantial.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I cannot really find anything Seer-ish looking about Kath, not at all - which is rather puzzling. I would really expect the WWs to go for the Seer and not just sit randomly around, when they have twice as big a chance to hit the Seer than usual. Same with Ozzy, unless somebody thought his verses refer to any dream-y nature of his or whatnot.

There is another connection, though, which Zil did not mention - Kath said specifically in one of her last posts that she certainly DOES NOT want to vote for Nessa (because she hasn't played with her before, simple as that - Nessa was in threat to be lynched at that point). But in any case that places her in the opposite basket to Ozzy. So in fact, I would put it this way: if the votes point to anybody, it is actually also Nessa, and maybe more than Inzil. The question is, though, how do they point at her, as in, what it means. I haven't found a good answer for that yet.

Of course, there is the possibility that either of the kills was suggested to the Wolves by the Cobbler. However, it would be a rather weird pick, in my opinion.

Personally, right now I would say that the point was the simplest one - a sort of no-trace kill, resp. a kill with a trace to somebody to frame: that's what I would expect. The question is (and that's to return to my unanswered question I raised above) if it was so, then who was to be framed and by whom, Nessa by Inzil, Inzil by Nessa, both by somebody, or nobody at all.

I don't have time or concentration enough for this now, however, so it will have to wait until after I sleep - several hours. Meanwhile, I think there might be quite a few posts.

And so, I add just the response to the questions from yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Legate - that Lottie says Agan calling the cobbler 'she' is a cobbler-hint, or that Lottie is cobbler-hinting herself in this quote? If the latter, I'd say that's quite a stretch.
(As for the matter itself, I've noticed that Agan habitually calls all roles 'she' - obviously she doesn't hold with gender-neutral pronouns; so this is certainly not a cobbler-hint on her part.)

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I agree, I don't know what Legate is getting at. Agan always refers to unknown people as a 'she', it's her way of protesting against our male-dominated society (at least, that's what I like to think she's doing). So no wolf looking at that would ever think it a Cobbler hint, it's just something she always does no matter what. And I don't see how what Lottie says could be a Cobbler hint. I'd like some clarification here on what he meant.

What I meant was that Lottie, of all the roles, mentioned the Cobbler in her post. It came out of the blue. It would have been sufficient to say "Agan always calls unknown roles she". If she calls all of them 'she' (which is, to my knowledge, also true, I am not disputing that at all), then why to say "one that comes to my mind is the cobbler"? Specifically mentioning a cobbler in such a random place might have been a Cobbler-hint, or Lottie-cobbler checking if Agan is a Wolf, or Lottie-Wolf checking if Agan is a cobbler... etc. Anyway, it was more like a remark, and the core of my suspicion was the latter part of my post. I would not have voted Lottie just because I'd think she's a Cobbler (which would've been in the first part a more likely outcome), I voted her because I thought she might be a Wolf.

Anyway, speaking of that, after her later posts yesterDay, I am not actually suspicious of Lottie much anymore now (though of course that's to see what she posts toDay).

So, later...

EDIT: x-ed since my last post