* *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

[Findegil]

That is a good find! I like that addition of yours. And will number it for easier reference as Ainu-08.8. But I am not sure that we need to change the time as Gondowe did.

What do other say?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

As I said in the introduction thread, were I gave the intro to the Appendix, I will provide what I did further on the Appendix:

Ainulindalë
The basic text in this chapter is taken from Ainulindalë text D given in HoM-E 10. The necessary additions were limited. Most of them are small points of detail. Only the story of the First War of the Valar was taken out of the Annals of Aman found in HoM-E 11.
As the groupe deciseded that the framestory of Eriol / Ælfwine would not be used all reverence to Eriol in the text of the Ainulindalë were skipt. Rúmil of Túna and Pengolodh the Sage remained as writers or commentators to the text.
One mayor point of discussion was the arnagement of the text. We did consider to follow Christopher Tolkiens lead and move the words of Pengolodh concerning the coming of the Valar and their First War to the first chapter of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. The main argument for this movment is the straight forward chronology. But in the end the argument prevailed that the Quenta deals with the Silmaril and the real beginning of that story line is the making of the trees which is recounted at the start of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’.
In addition there was the issue of Pengolodh giving an verbal side note to Ælfwine about Yavanna seen by him as a tree. The nice and pictural remark that provided an information not given elsewere motivated all members to keep that passage in some way. But as it contained direct speech to Ælfwine it was clear that we had to change it. The real motive behind the arguments were only late in the discussion revealed and so many a possible solution was proposed without any real chance of success.
Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incooperat the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rumil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text.
Antoine and Findegil suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengolodh without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengolodh to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengoloð and that we creat a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded.
Later it came out that Aiwendils concern was exactly the first person reporting of the sight and not so much the footnote. Therefore, even so Aiwendil never explained his concerns in more detail in the end the Yavanna as a tree passage was taken into the body of the text.
Further details:
In §15 Tolkien left "Halls of Aman" unchanged so he in all other places changed it to "Halls of Eä". We considered that as a slip of the pen and changed it consitent with the rest of the text.
In §16 Tolkien left in the passage about Aulë same verbs in present tense, while all the serounding was changed to past tense. We considere that also a slip of the pen and changed it to past tense.
In §17 we added from the C text of the Ainulindalë "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" since we thought that it was lost without intention.
In the §'s 23 and 24 we have take up passages from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 dealing with the first establishment of the kingdom of Arda and the first strife of Melkor with the other Valar. Even so Myths Transformed dealed mostly with the round earth changes, we found that the changed motives and additional details in these passages should not be lost to our flat earth version.
In §25 we took up a passage from Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, Parma Eldalamberon no. 17 dealing with the fanar of the Valar and their stature.
In §32 we added a passage from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 that dealt with the grive of the Valar seeing that Melkor had turned darkness and night to time of fright. Its content is not fully compatible with the story of the lamps and their aferlasting light during the spring of Arda, but we nonetheless found it essential enough to add it.

Especially the last point mentioned might be worth reconsidering.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It seems that we never actually discussed the changes in §25 and §32. I like them both in principle, but I think we may need to work harder to integrate them into the text. I will have a careful look at them tonight if I can.

But I think you are right in your last point: we can scarcely say 'it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end' when we are dealing with the very part of the story where they have put into effect their plan for perpetual day under the Lamps.

[Aiwendil]

After looking back at this again, I realize that we never actually came to a decision on what to do with the material concerning the first war, the Lamps, and the making of Valinor - whether to place it in the Ainulindale or in the first chapter of the Silmarillion. Since we are not constructing a 'veritable' Ainulindale (nor Quenta Silmarillion), perhaps we need not worry too much about that. I do think that the one thing to avoid is tell of the first war twice; that is, we should have a single account built out of the AAm, LQ, the Ainulindale, and any other pertinent texts.

If we decide to put this material in the Ainulindale, though, it isn't immediately obvious - at least, it isn't to me - where the break should go. There's overlap here among the Ainulindale D, AAm, and LQ. Indeed, I think we've largely overlooked until now the fact that LQ also has an account of this part of the history - though Antoine seems to have fully grokked that fact, and I now think his suggestion that we should consider the Ainulindale together with chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion made a lot of sense. For whatever we decide here will have implications for that chapter. If we decide to incorporate everything up to the building of Valinor into the Ainulindale (which is as far as the Ainulindale D goes), then if we want to avoid repeating the same material twice, we will have no 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' left!

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to put the material in question in the first chapter of the QS. That way we avoid the awkwardness of determining a chapter break, and QS chapter 1 can be constructed out of LQ, AAm, and the Ainulindale so as to most completely tell the story of those early ages. I think in the end it turns out that Christopher Tolkien made a very wise decision in doing essentially that.

Matters would be very different if we were trying to construct the 'real' Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion. In that case, it would make perfect sense for the story to be told in both texts; and in that case, the argument that the QS should move immediately to the Two Trees, the source of the light of the Silmarils, would have force. But since our goal is a complete history, those concerns don't really apply.

Findegil, earlier you expressed a preference for putting this material in the Ainulindale. Do you still hold this opinion? If so, can you explain your reasoning?

As for AINU-08.8, looking at it again I think Gondowe's proposal is good as it is. I'm holding off on diving too deeply into the other un-discussed changes (partially because I now think they should wait until we take up 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees').

[gondowe]

Hello Aiwendil and Findegil is nice to see that you are still going on. I am very very busy and with not much time but always thinking in our loved professor.
As you can see in the chapter structure in the thread about my spanish project, I introduced a first chapter that called "Of the beginning of time" (extracted from the first one of the Annals of Aman) where is told the story previous the Two Trees, with the texts from Ainulindale, AAm, etc. That was a good idea of Christopher Tolkien.
So I'm right with Aiwendil about that point.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

As my proposal 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees (unposted here since we wanted to check all chapters that we finished so far first) goes, it has lot repeating from The Ainulindale. The focus is changed a bit and therefore I found it bearable. In The Ainulindale the focus lies more on the Legend up to the War of the Lamps and the building of Valinor is only shortly mentioned, while in 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees the Legend up to the War of Lampy is only recounted in short and the building of Valinor greatly expanded.

This looks okay for me if both The Ainulindale and Silmarillion are considered as single works. But if we take them as an entity it might be better to avoid any repeatition. The Only problem is that we have in our structure The Valaquenta in between. Therefore I agree that it is better to take up the full History of Arda into the Silmarillion if we want aviod repeatition.

The question is then were we make the split. Christopher Tolkien does make it at the begining of the words of Pengolodh. But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:

§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there AINU-08.2{from the first}<soon>, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposesAINU-08.3.{; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor ...
§25 But the Valar now took to themselves ...
§26 And behold! ...
§27 Thus began the first battle ...
§28 But of all such matters, ...

Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine

§29 And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, ...
§30 And Pengoloð answered: ...
§31 This tale {I have heard ...
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, ...
§33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, ...
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, ...
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm ...
§36 But Manwë Súlimo, ...
§37 But Ulmo was alone, ...
§38 And in that time of dark ... and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come.}
§39 AINU-16 Now all is said{ to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it.{ Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.} For Elves and Men are the Children; and since they understood not fully that theme by which they entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, this has seldom turned to good, howsoever good the intent. The dealings of the Ainur have been mostly with the Elves, for Ilúvatar made the Eldar more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature, whereas to Men he gave strange gifts.
§40 For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke, and he said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Eldar and the Atani! But the Eldar shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani (which are Men) I will give a new gift.'
§41 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
§42 But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet we of the Eldar believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar. For it seems to us that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, and yet he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we know not. Whereas the Eldar remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poignant, therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. Memory is our burden. For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World (it is said); wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar said unto us that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

AINU-17 <End of the Ainulindalë {spoken}[written] by Rúmil {to Ælfwine}.>

Once we agree were we set the end of The Ainulindale I will try to make a proposal for the first chapter (or chapters) of The Silmarillon. I have the feeling that it might be neccessary to use the headline that Chirstofer Tolkien used in Sil77: Of the Beginning of Days to collect all the material that we have to transfer.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Greetings, Gondowe! Good to see you.

Originally Posted by Findegil

But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:

Just to make sure I understand - is your proposal then to put the split just before §23 of the Ainulindale? That is, end the Ainulindale with §22 and move the rest into QS chapter 1? I suppose that seems reasonable. Of course, that interrupts the flow of the text, but I doubt that can be avoided. I wonder if it would be taking too great a liberty, though, to take the first sentence of §23 as the end of our Ainulindale; for it really does follow on from the end of §22, and it reads a good deal better as the final sentence of a chapter.

I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine!

But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on.

[gondowe]

Well is too difficult compare the inner text of both versions, mine and yours but with the different reconstruction of the phrases, and some minor differences in the insertions of the external paragraphs, if it could be of help, broadly, my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end. The rest is inserted in the Chapter one of QS "Of the beginning of time".

Greetings