Tolkien on the Kindle

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by davem

I no longer buy new physical editions of Tolkien books on principle, & I'll now make sure I avoid HC's ebooks - even if that means not getting e-copies at all.

If you shun buying the actual books as well as the e-versions, what options are you left with? Used copies from second-hand shops? That's actually where my "working" copies come from.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If you shun buying the actual books as well as the e-versions, what options are you left with? Used copies from second-hand shops? That's actually where my "working" copies come from.

The older (Allen & Unwin) editions are much higher quality than the cheap junk put out by HC. I've got some A&U editions from the '60's & 70's which will outlast the current stuff HC are churning out now - & they can be bought for the same price via Abe Books.

[Mister Underhill]

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?

On the Kindle vs traditional books front, a new software update has added absolute page number functionality to the device. So now the "location" you're at can be mapped to the corresponding page number in the dead-tree edition. For me it definitely eases the difference in medium to be able to know what page I'm on.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?

Couple months too late, but this caught my eye - 30-35 is the amount that can be expected in my experience. Now, my school is a relatively poor one, so we got by with the librarians making new covers out of construction paper and such, in some cases, especially for paperback books. Hardbacks normally lasted longer then that. Now those numbers are best case scenarios, in several cases this year, books only lasted for a little bit, before somebody would manage to tear the cover off, drop it in animal waste (yes, this happened), drop it in the toilet, the book was returned with bite marks, ect. Yes, all those happened...luckily, the kid who dropped his book in animal waste, had the common sense to not bring it into school, and just brought the money for the book instead....

Now, to return to the Tolkien on the Kindle, several new Tolkien books have come out on their recently including BoLT I & II. As I recently graduated high school, which can be a lucrative business if you have a party with relatives, I now have them, as well as Tales from the Perilous Realm. Next up, Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun to buy...Reviews of BoLT and Tales formatting on Kindle, as soon as I have the chance to finish reading them...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Couple months too late, but this caught my eye - 30-35 is the amount that can be expected in my experience. Now, my school is a relatively poor one, so we got by with the librarians making new covers out of construction paper and such, in some cases, especially for paperback books. Hardbacks normally lasted longer then that. Now those numbers are best case scenarios, in several cases this year, books only lasted for a little bit, before somebody would manage to tear the cover off, drop it in animal waste (yes, this happened), drop it in the toilet, the book was returned with bite marks, ect. Yes, all those happened...luckily, the kid who dropped his book in animal waste, had the common sense to not bring it into school, and just brought the money for the book instead....

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.


I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

Am I an old-fashioned kid? Probably. That's the only reason I could come up with for my animosity towards electronic books.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.

Well, in defense of the one kid, who dropped it in animal waste - he actually did normally take very good care of the books he checked out. Unfortunately, we had a period of heavy rain, his driveway sloped down hill, and as he was walking down it from the bus one day, he went on a roll - he had the customary gravel scratch marks to prove it. Both the librarian and I felt sorry for him....In general though, the kids didn't care - though the books did get more respect then me. The fact that I was shorter then them, didn't help earn me any respect....

I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

I could care less about cellphones (I hate talking to people on the phone), but other then that - I want the latest technology. I have a Kindle, an iPod, and in the past few months, I've spent some of the money I got for graduating, and earlier this year my birthday, to improve my technology - I've upgraded to a wireless mouse and keyboard, got a usb hub so I have more room for my devices, bought a wireless printer/scanner, a Wacom art tablet, a new camera, and an external hard drive. Next, I have to get a laptop for college.....

[Inziladun]

I can't speak about the Kindle. However, my wife bought a Nook yesterday and I've found it most difficult to set up and generally figure out. And here I'd always thought reading was a stress reliever.
No thanks, I'll stick with physical books that make sense.

[davem]

I gave up on the Kindle altogether & went back to real books. I won't rehearse the old stuff about you can't lend ebooks on, or give them away, they're full of typos, too expensive, etc, but that was part of the reason. Mainly though, I just didn't get on with the thing - it felt like 'pretend' reading, & 'unnatural' (maybe just 'cos having spent most of my half century reading in a certain position (laying down ), & being used to the different weights on my chest,different font/text sizes, cover pics, etc I couldn't stand the uniformity the Kindle imposes on every book. Having just gotten into George RR Martin & purchased the US trade paperbacks I can't imagine why anyone would want to read the stories on a plastic screen. That goes double for my old Tolkien editions.

I've handed over my Kindle to Lalwende (the missus) - & she has A Song of Ice & Fire on there, but still tends to pick up the 'real' thing when she wants to read the books. I daresay that ebooks will win out in the end but, honestly, count me out.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books?

For myself, I have no disrespect for books, but a lot for the publishing industry. It isn't what it used to be, nor are most books. I myself own books that are quite old — the oldest is about 150 years old, and it's in better shape than a lot that are much newer. The materials and processes used to make books aren't what they once were; glues, paper, inks, everything has changed, and changed again. The high acid papers that were popular for many years have been replaced, by some publishers, but the inks that are more environmentally friendly also fade and rub away very quickly. The binding are cheap, as are the glues that hold them, and spines crack and pages fall out, sometimes before I've finished the first read of the book (and I'm not that hard on them).

The sloppiness of the publishing industry has slopped into ebooks. The only reason that so many ebooks are rife with "typos" are because the publishers didn't bother with having a human being proof them and clean up the code after conversion to the ebook's format. I know, because I've now made a few ebooks of my own, and am familiar with the programs and processes and what happens when one format is converted to another. Yes, it's easy to take a PDF file, send it through a conversion program, and voila! have an ebook, but the conversion process makes a horrible mess of things far too often. A person with a proper editing program needs to go through it and correct these things (many of which could be cleaned up simply by starting with an RTF file rather than a PDF). It's sad when I, who am asking nothing for my little twiddles of ebooks, take greater care with them than the publishers who are asking real money for them. It's not that hard to make a good clean ebook, but they obviously don't want to cut into profits by hiring someone to do a one-time proof and clean-up. Grr.

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology, as it helps make up for many of my physical shortcomings, which grow greater with each passing year (and don't get me started on my recent six month bout with statin drug damage to my body, from which I am still slowly recovering. We're talking serious non-stop pain and near-crippling weakness for six freaking months!)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology...

*giggles*

What's even funnier is that I, being one of the youngest (or the youngest?) member, barely know of the latest inventions and innovations!

I totally agree about what you said about the materials. However, people can still respect books a bit more. I have an old book that I found lying in this place where people drop off books that they don't need anymore. I read and liked very much. It was very old and tattered when I picked it up, and it survived many a story with me. I can't count how many pages fell out! But it is still intact (with the hale of tape) and legible. I can see the majority of my classmates simply throwing that old fossil into the recycling bin.

Note, that I don't mean anybody specifically when I say "people", and especially not any of us Tolkien fans (who could be such and not respect books?!). This is just the general trend of attitude that I noticed amongst people of aproximately my age, give or take 5 or so years.

Originally Posted by Brooke

the books did get more respect then me. The fact that I was shorter then them, didn't help earn me any respect....

I'm sorry about that. As much as I respect books, I respect people more. Especially peole like you!

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

For myself, I have no disrespect for books, but a lot for the publishing industry. It isn't what it used to be, nor are most books. I myself own books that are quite old — the oldest is about 150 years old, and it's in better shape than a lot that are much newer. The materials and processes used to make books aren't what they once were; glues, paper, inks, everything has changed, and changed again. The high acid papers that were popular for many years have been replaced, by some publishers, but the inks that are more environmentally friendly also fade and rub away very quickly. The binding are cheap, as are the glues that hold them, and spines crack and pages fall out, sometimes before I've finished the first read of the book (and I'm not that hard on them).

Exactly...I have some old books too, and even paperbacks from long ago hold up much better. I have a set of Little House paperbacks from the 40s, and they are in far better conditions then some books I bought last year, and only read once...

I know, because I've now made a few ebooks of my own, and am familiar with the programs and processes and what happens when one format is converted to another. Yes, it's easy to take a PDF file, send it through a conversion program, and voila! have an ebook, but the conversion process makes a horrible mess of things far too often. A person with a proper editing program needs to go through it and correct these things (many of which could be cleaned up simply by starting with an RTF file rather than a PDF). It's sad when I, who am asking nothing for my little twiddles of ebooks, take greater care with them than the publishers who are asking real money for them. It's not that hard to make a good clean ebook, but they obviously don't want to cut into profits by hiring someone to do a one-time proof and clean-up. Grr.

If you don't mind me asking, which type of ebooks have you made? I'm curious about the process, and have considered trying to make one of some of my out of copyright books...

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology, as it helps make up for many of my physical shortcomings, which grow greater with each passing year (and don't get me started on my recent six month bout with statin drug damage to my body, from which I am still slowly recovering. We're talking serious non-stop pain and near-crippling weakness for six freaking months!)

Oh my! I hope you get much better. While I'm not bad off as you, I completely understand the technology to make up for physical shortcomings - I myself, due to my insurance companies refusal to allow me to have the epipen style Lantus shots, have bruises every so often, on my stomach or upper thigh that go into my muscle tissue or fat, that going out and actually doing things difficult. My sincerest hopes that you're feeling better now.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm sorry about that. As much as I respect books, I respect people more. Especially peole like you!

Thank you! I am one of those people that look much younger then their real age - I'm 18, and often hear "but you look 13", so I get little respect from the actual 13 year olds...especially when I was tossing them out of the library for acting like idiots, and breaking the rules....

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE=Galadriel55;657189]

Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.

I know what you mean. My mom found a 19th century edition of Walter Scott's poetry (hard-bound, with REAL gold on the cover!) at a flea market that cost less than what you would usually pay for a milkshake. Not that I'm complaining - it's just that I find it almost funny how so many people do not value books.

I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

Mostly agreed. I understand that for people with a low budget, e-readers can be a life-saver, but for me, any book that is worth reading is worth buying, especially since we probably won't have too many real books some thirty years down the line because of deforestation (and also technology). I can live in a small apartment in a lousy city – but I can't live in a big house that doesn't have any books in it.

And yeah, for the longest time I kept a dinosaur of a cell phone. It was only when it wheezed its last wheeze that I bought a new one

Am I an old-fashioned kid? Probably. That's the only reason I could come up with for my animosity towards electronic books.

No, I don't think so. You just like having the real thing in your hand - sort of the way I prefer letters to emails

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I know what you mean. My mom found a 19th century edition of Walter Scott's poetry (hard-bound, with REAL gold on the cover!) at a flea market that cost less than what you would usually pay for a milkshake.

That is INSANE!

Originally Posted by Galardiel

Mostly agreed. I understand that for people with a low budget, e-readers can be a life-saver, but for me, any book that is worth reading is worth buying, especially since we probably won't have too many real books some thirty years down the line because of deforestation (and also technology). I can live in a small apartment in a lousy city – but I can't live in a big house that doesn't have any books in it.

Or, I can live close to the library. I have the books that I really really lie and reread every coupe years, but some books - even some Tolkien - I borrowed from the library.


I have a friens who has an ebook, and I tried using it, and I knew that it just wasn't my thing. So, no ebooks for me for the near future.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?

"Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew" [/minimal exaggeration]. From my own experience: break the backs, rip out illustrations, cover the pages with text markers in four different colours, spill everything from tea and coffee to orange juice to wine to soy sauce or ketchup over them... and occasionally admit rather sheepishly that the dog has massacred them (those are the ones I can sympathize with). And I'm talking about students at a university here, not little kids. The boy Brooke has told us about seems to have treated his borrowed books with more respect than many of our academic elite.

[Mister Underhill]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Sometimes it's easy to assume a general reverence for books when the opposite is more the general case. I guess it can depend on the sort of books one favors, too. My local library has several volumes of Kipling old enough to bear the Hindu swastika. Every once in a while when I'm hankering for some ol' Rud, I'll take one out. They're real beauties. But then they probably mostly sit there on the shelf gathering dust in between the odd occasions when I check them out. One upside of e-readers, at least, is that they lower my chances of having to witness some vulgarian bend the spine back on a book so they can read it one-handed.

Anyway, since I'm here, I might as well update on my experience. I have grown to love my Kindle. I love being able to carry a bookshelf around in a cargo pocket, but who wouldn't? That's only the most obvious benefit. There are lots of interesting digital freebies out there, and I've gotten interested in the whole Creative Commons movement, as well as the indie-publishing movement. There's a whole new -- and expanding -- strata of stuff out there that's sometimes only available digitally. Project Gutenberg and Munsey's are inexhaustible wells of yumminess.

Sometimes you'll stumble across promotional freebies too, as I did recently with a recent download of the audio version of the, ah, shall we say, off-color Go the F*** to Sleep, read by Sam Jackson, a "children's book for grown-ups" meant to put a smile on the faces of frustrated and overtired parents. Fortunately I'm past that stage myself, but I'll be picking up a hard copy for some friends whose new boss is due soon.

Perhaps most unexpected of all -- as Ibrin mentioned above, it's fairly easy to put your own content into an e-reader-friendly format.

A note about concerns over Amazon's control over the digital content they sell you -- when there was a recent update to LotR, they didn't just push it to my device. They sent me an email and gave me the option to update to the new file or not. So, for now at least, the policy seems to be evolving towards a more respectful stance towards the user. And despite a sloppy start in many cases (LotR not the least), the obvious inevitability here is towards digital editions which are perfect reproductions of print editions.

Having Tolkien handily available anywhere at any time (and searchable!) is a great luxury. Sure, I'd love to always be able to sit down in my favorite comfy chair in my quiet man-cave with a treasured edition and a snifter of brandy near to hand, but in these busy days I can't really afford to fetishize the reading experience. The simple fact is that I'm doing a lot more reading since I got my Kindle.

[Mithalwen]

I am just about to get a Kindle (I am facing the prospect of moving to a smaller house and am having to part with a heart breaking amount of books as I clear out the ancestral smial with the book collections of three generations) so it really appeals- though I can't see me giving up on proper books entirely but it wills save me buying new paperback Tolkeins every couple of years because I have worn them out. And I can have them with me at all times.

Anyway I have noticed that the first two volumes of HoME are out.

[FlimFlamSam]

Mister Underhill spoke: [Any comments on them, or comments in general about reading Tolkien electronically?]
I can't speak for Kindle products, but I can for E-Tolkien-text which is what this post mainly concerns itself with.

I prefer a simple .doc format, that can be read at home or on a laptop.
It also has the advantage of being correcteble, especially if you pick up something like Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion or History of the Hobbit as reference along with say Peoples of Middle-earth for the cut Appendices.

Depending on what edition was used to make the original Kindle document, it may have used an older version of text that has mistakes and missing text, not to mention any new problems in the e-book creation process. That doesn't sound like an advantage.

davem spoke: [However, a couple of negatives...]
I've heard about the only "renting it, subject to recall, buyer beware" clause. That's not so good--when considering books.

I've also heard about the replacement texts on books as well. As for Amazon invasion of privacy to see what other books you might like to buy, that's already an established practice of theirs just looking around their site so not unexpected.

Mister Underhill spoke: [The e-ink display is not far off from reading a printed page -- much easier on the eyes and just more book-like than a backlit computer screen.]
You can also solve that with the .doc format. Some people prefer html.
Simply format the .doc for landscape and two columns. It looks just like you're reading a physical book and tricks the mind a bit. You can also add whatever images you like and even insert background colors or images if you want something more than plain white as page color.

Mister Underhill spoke: [If, as I do, you view the device merely as a convenient adjunct to reading, it's pretty nifty.]
Then I would say it does the job then despite whatever complaints are considered.

As for me, I'll pass on Kindle. Just not interested in it.