Saruman's death

[Galadriel55]

This brings up another interesting point: was Saruman's ring, if it had Power, under the dominion of the One?

Seems like the palantir was not the only thing he kept secret from the White Council...

New theory for Saruman's corruption: to find out how to best destroy the Ring, he wanted to find out how it wrked. To do that, he tried making one himself, sort-of succeeded, and -

...would be Nazgul#10 if he wasn't a maia, I guess...



And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

I agree that he couldn't have become a Nazgul because his spirit was not the weak thing as that of a mortal man, but was Maiar. But even Maiar have Hierarchies, Degrees of Power and Authority, one over the other, and it sounds possible that Curunirs ring could fall under the sway of the One.

But bear in mind again that Sauruman was an "Originator" of a ring in the same spiritual order as the other "originator" of the One Ring, being both separated by time in an non-allied endeavor in their ring attempts. Therefore, while, in the case of the Elven rings, Sauron never touched them and yet they fell under the power of the One anyway, this happened because as the originator of the basic lore, it was Saurons special influence and sorcery that made them subject to him.

Saurumans ring-making was an entirely independent attempt based loosely on his own "Ring Craft" knowledge and power, and on the the gleanings from the notes of the Elves of Eregion who made them, which left Saurons influence out of it completely. Saruman would certainly have thought of this before making a ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only a few quick remarks to what I think about Saruman's ring - I believe it to be, indeed, an attempt (probably the best of his attempts) to create some Rings of his own. However, those rings won't be under the power of the One, as, like with Three, Sauron had no part in their making.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

Aside from what I have said above, not 21st either: there were many lesser things apart from the Three, Seven and Nine, according to what Gandalf (and everyone) says about the Smiths of Eregion, and I assume Saruman's would be more similar to those in power. Still, quite enough for Saruman already, in any case, a definite success: "Wow, I actually DID it!" A few hundred years more of research and who knows...? Anyway, despite the Ring being "lesser", even if it reached the power of the lesser Rings of Eregion, it was powerful enough in general terms:

Originally Posted by FotR, The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf to Frodo

The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

As for falling under the power of the One, I differ in opinion on the issue because it says in the books that the Elf Lords perceived the mind of Sauron when he donned the One RIng and hastily removed their own. Yet, after the fall of Sauron by the hand of Isildur, they began wearing them again.

I can't recall if it states flatly that they removed their Elven rings for fear of falling under the dominion of the One or not, but I think it's true that they did so for that reason. Once again, the arcane knowledge that gave birth to the ability to forge the rings were said to have come from Sauron and his influence nonetheless, and had enough of a link to his own being to constitute a threat.

Having said that, I reiterate that Saruman was probably the "source" of his own missing knowledge, apart from that discovered by the Elves, and therefore wouldn't have necessarily fallen under the power of the One. But even if Sauron was powerful enough to instantly infuse himself into every ring subsequently made, if any, he could only do so while in possession of the One Ring. So whether Sarumans ring was subject to the One (which I doubt) or not, until Sauron recovered the One Ring, he and the Elf Lords were quite safe from the hazard of becoming wraiths or Nazgul. And given their magically potent and immortal nature, becoming rather, dark and twisted servants of a higher order than the Nazgul would be liklier in any event.

[Alfirin]

Another fun thought.

Long ago, I started a thread which broached the subject of whether there were orginally supposed to be FOUR, or even FIVE eleven rings; that since each elven ring seemed to be tied to an element, it was odd that there was no ring for Earth (or Spirit, but the One ring fits that quite well in and of itself) Now I'm wondering if Saruman's attempt a a ring would have resulted in just that, a ring of earth. You have said that Saruman might have been able to create a ring on par with the elven rings, and given sarumans love of metal, machinery and tecnology, earth would certainly seem to be his element. Pity we never get a description of what the ring looks like, if it had a green stone (my best guess as to the color of the earth element given red fire, white water and blue sky) that might say a lot.

[blantyr]

Interesting conjectures here. Don't have any answers, but might throw up a few other issues.

I'm inclined to think Saruman's ring less than the 20 Great Rings. Would its power fade after the destruction of The One? Frodo and Sam at least would be aware of Saruman's ring from the Council of Elrond, yet there was no mention of checking his body after his death. I have this image of Frodo and Sam, after their long trip, after the cleansing of the Shire, sitting down in Bag End with a ring on the table between them, likely golden, likely no gem. I've also wondered, if when Elanor went to Minas Tirith with Aragorn and Arwen, if Sam might have asked her, since she was going to be down near Mount Doom anyway, if she might toss this little trinket in the Crack of Doom.

I've also wondered how a wizard's staff compared in power to the Great Rings. They certainly seemed to break more easily. At a guess they might be as The Five, greater than The Seven, less than The Three?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'm inclined to think Saruman's ring less than the 20 Great Rings. Would its power fade after the destruction of The One? Frodo and Sam at least would be aware of Saruman's ring from the Council of Elrond, yet there was no mention of checking his body after his death.

Whatever Saruman's ring was, no one seemed to be all that concerned about it, including one who knew Saruman better than any: Gandalf. He failed to mention it again after the Council, and even let Saruman pass him and the other travelers by in Dunland, knowing that Saruman might still have it. That tells me that Gandalf had some insight that the ring was not a threat, either as an instrument of power, or a corrupting influence.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've also wondered how a wizard's staff compared in power to the Great Rings. They certainly seemed to break more easily. At a guess they might be as The Five, greater than The Seven, less than The Three?

There have been some interesting threads here over the years about the staves of the Istari, and what they actually did. Here is one of the most recent.

I don't think the staves and the rings are comparable. The Rings of Power imparted to the wearer power that did not belong to them originally. The staves were, in my opinion, a means of focusing the user's innate "magical" power, much as the wands in the Harry Potter series.

[FlameofAnor]

Is it not realistic to assume Saruman will fight alongside Sauron and Melkor at Dagor Dagorath - the Final Battle? It would suit him. Also, if memory serves me correctly, in one of Tolkeinls volumes, did he not say a third evil would rise as Sauron's equal and fight in The End with Melkor? Could be him, eh?