The door of durin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I think it was indeed a little slip by JRRT. Not Gandalf's description, because as Galadriel says it could be on-the-spot translation. But the elaborate drawing Tolkien made of the inscription also says Moria, and Khazad-Dum apparently wasn't called Moria until the whole unfortunate Balrog incident.

Appendix F also notes that Moria was a name given without love. The writing on the doors probably was a slip, and Tolkien even comments on another slip concerning the writing on the tomb -- but the solution can be similar enough to Tolkien's solution to the Anglo-Saxon (based) runes appearing in The Hobbit.

The picture of the door in the modern book is (obviously) not a photo of the actual doors, but the picture is still effective enough, giving an idea of what it might have looked like in general, including a general representation of some internal language and script. The runes in The Hobbit are Anglo-Saxon based, but since the actual runes as used by the Elves and Dwarves are 'similar enough' in design (at least), they lend an effective element visually, to the story.


In short, I see nothing wrong with imagining hadhodrond on the actual doors -- despite Moria being written in the picture, just as one must imagine Durin and Narvi are not on the real doors -- also despite being written in the picture in the modern book.

Durin and Narvi can't be on the real doors, as these names are not only not the real names of these Dwarves, they are translations made by someone who knows Old Norse -- a language that did not exist when the actual doors were made, and still very much in the future by Frodo's day even.

[Selmo]

I prefer not to regard the inclusion of Moria on the doors as a mistake on the part of Tolkien.

We know of the inscription from Frodo's contribution to The Red Book of Westmarch, written some years after the events. Frodo made no recordings, took no photographs and didn't keep a diary. Considering what he went through before writing the story, it's remarkable how much detail he remembered about those doors and Gandalf's comments.

I'm sure we can forgive his lapse of memory when he used the name most familliar to him when he drew the sketch and wrote down what he remembered of Gandalf's translation.

.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Selmo

I prefer not to regard the inclusion of Moria on the doors as a mistake on the part of Tolkien.

We know of the inscription from Frodo's contribution to The Red Book of Westmarch, written some years after the events. Frodo made no recordings, took no photographs and didn't keep a diary. Considering what he went through before writing the story, it's remarkable how much detail he remembered about those doors and Gandalf's comments.

I'm sure we can forgive his lapse of memory when he used the name most familliar to him when he drew the sketch and wrote down what he remembered of Gandalf's translation.

That another way to look at it, yes... but that doesn't account for the names Durin and Narvi written in the picture... so why not just add Moria to the same explanation one must use for the 'Dwarf-names'.

Also, one can claim Moria was a purposed use of a name (in writing even), by Tolkien, as this was known to the reader.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

That another way to look at it, yes... but that doesn't account for the names Durin and Narvi written in the picture... so why not just add Moria to the same explanation one must use for the 'Dwarf-names'.

Also, one can claim Moria was a purposed use of a name (in writing even), by Tolkien, as this was known to the reader.

You know, this thread is giving me a distinct sense of déjà vu... but that's a good point about the names, Galin. Now why doesn't that bother anyone?

Anyway, with all due respect, Selmo, I think using the "translator-conceit" to get out of the difficulty is preferable to an explanation that, in my view, tends to undermine much of the story.

EDIT:X'd with Galin and Kuru.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galin

Durin and Narvi can't be on the real doors, as these names are not only not the real names of these Dwarves, they are translations made by someone who knows Old Norse -- a language that did not exist when the actual doors were made, and still very much in the future by Frodo's day even.

While from a certain perspective your point is accurate, remember too that dwarves used outer names that were used in public and used for door carvings and inner ones. Not using their real dwarvish names was entirely appropriate.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While from a certain perspective your point is accurate, remember too that dwarves used outer names that were used in public and used for door carvings and inner ones. Not using their real dwarvish names was entirely appropriate.

I do remember


But the Dwarves no more had names in Old Norse than the Rohirrim had names in Old English... only the modern translator can put these in the book.

As Tolkien realized the absurdity of 'Balin' written on the (drawing of the) tomb, the same must go for Durin and Narvi. Frodo might have written Moria for hadhodrond, but he cannot have written Durin and Narvi, nor can anyone else living 'back then' (in Frodo's day) have written these names.

For another example: Samwise wasn't Sam's real name, he was called Ban (for short): it would be like a letter being written in actual Westron with the name 'Samwise' in it! this name would mean nothing to the Hobbits; it's an invention of the modern translator (based on a language not yet arisen in Frodo's day).