Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[gondowe]

Good to read you again Findegil, we still are going on.

Well, for me it could be easier to include these parts of the Lay because I can make them prose and insert into the body of the Narn, as was made in the central chaptes of the Narn (here the whole Lay) or in other parts of the TftE.

You could make the same.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Hi Gondowe,

I think the arguments agianst these inserts had not so much to do with the fact that they are verse. It was more focused on the Narn being a very completed text in these parts.

In addition we only in very special cases tried to change prose to verse or the other way. And when ever we did the result was at least questionable. That is better in your case since you are more free with the text since you have to translate them anyway.

Respectfuly,
Findegil

[Findegil]

While working on other texts I found that I possibly over did it in the intro to the Narn. I eliminated all references to English even so some were to the actual text we produce. Since our Product is clearly in English we should probably keep these references. The second § taken von Aelfwine & Dírhaval A would read then:

This version into 'modern' English, that is forms of English intelligible to living users of the English tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. But since it is even to Elves now 'a tale of long ago', and depicts high and ancient persons and their speech (such as Thingol and Melian), there{ is in Ælfwine's version, and clearly} was in {Dírhavel}[Dírhaval]'s day{,} much archaic language, of words and usage, and the older and nobler Elves do not speak in the same style as Men, or in quite the same language as that of the main narrative; there are therefore here retained similar elements. It is for this reason that, for example, Thingol's speech is not that of our present day: for indeed the speech of Doriath, whether of the king or others, was even in the days of Túrin more antique than that used elsewhere. One thing (as Mîm observed) of which Túrin never rid himself, despite his grievance against Doriath, was the speech he had acquired during his fostering. Though a Man, he spoke like an Elf of the Hidden Kingdom, which is as though a Man should now appear, whose speech and schooling until manhood had been that of some secluded country where the English had remained nearer that of the court of Elizabeth I than of Elizabeth II.>

Since these changes wer never discussed throughly, it seems time to do so. Up to now we skipt the reference to English in the first sentence by replacing it by 'language' and we skipt the comparision of Túrins spech with that of a man of the time of Elizabth I. But I think both is unneccessary. When we take up some linguistic stuff as we probably may do, then we will keep English aquivalances of meaning or sound for sure. Therefore I think we should keep it here as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think this point needs some consideration. But I think I'd like to hold off on revisiting 'Turin' for the moment - simply because I noticed that some points in my notes on this chapter required further work before I post them. Unless there is an objection, I am hoping to post some notes on 'Tuor' tonight, and tackle the revision of that chapter first.

[Findegil]

That is okay with me. I just wanted to document my thoughts here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Considering the addition of the parts of the Lay, I think I agree with Findegil that they should be included - for the sole reason that those parts of the Narn are very brief - indeed one of the main goals of this project is to give as detailed account possible, as long as the additions do not contradict the later Tolkien's ideas. After all, we are making as detailed account as possible, and, of course, our version of "The Silmarillion" is probably not what Tolkien would have wrote, if he continued working on it. But, unfortunately, we have to do with what we have.


P.S. I don't think that Andróg's "curse" would ever come to fulfilment - to me it's simply a Mannish equivalent of "Ishkhakwi ai durugnul".

[Arvegil145]

I have included the parts of the Lay in my version, and, in my opinion, they work PERFECTLY! Beautiful details - at least according to me - omitted from the Narn for the sake of what I have no clue about - but since Tolkien is not any more in the world of the living - and we are NOT Tolkien - we should include those parts of the Lay.