How hard and long was it, Aragorn?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I can't get past the phrasing of your question, Al.

Indeed, I've wondered as well whether Aragorn was implying anything about his long betrothal to Arwen here. 38 years, poor guy... I'm sure it could get pretty hard at times.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I sometimes oppose to close-reading novels for litte details as such, because I have the feeling that half the time all these little bums and holes in the wording were put without intention by the author, and we are trying to make odds and ends out of them.

D'accord, if you mean that the author probably didn't ponder consciously about the wording and rhythm of every little phrase. But great writers, I think, have that kind of stuff at the tip of their little fingers and do it most of the time without having to think about it - it just feels right: like a painter knowing by intuition that a painting needs a touch of green in this precise part of the canvas, or a good guitar player bending exactly the right note in a solo. Which doesn't mean that we can't think about it and try to learn why it feels right.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It could have been about rhythm, but there are so many other ways to say it with a rhythm but without the awkward phrasing (like, "My LIFE was HARD and LONG" - iambic rhythm, but rhythm nonetheless).

So it is probably the second thing that you said.

Well, rhythm as I understand it here isn't about putting a phrase in any old metre to make it sound more dignified or whatever, it's about finding the right rhythm that complements and emphasizes the meaning. The two things I said are actually two aspects of the same thing.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But then, the beginning of the sentence is also a bit awkward: "I have had a hard life and a long". Why "have had", and not just one or the other, or a different word altogether (like "lead")?

Don't they teach you the proper use of perfect and imperfect in school nowadays?
He could say "I have a hard life", but then he couldn't add "and a long", because then he'd be making a general statement about his entire life, and he can't foresee how long it's going to be in the end.
If he said "I had a hard life and a long", he would be near the end of his life and looking back on the whole.
But what he's doing here, at a turning point in his life, is summing up his life so far, up to and including the present, and what it has made him:

"I have had a hard life and a long [and it has left its traces on me; so don't you wonder, Boromir, that I don't quite look like your mental image of Isildur's heir]."

Not awkward or odd at all.

[Rumil]

I doubt Elrond & co. were too impressed by Aragorn's claim of a long life, having several thousand years on him. I'd imagine these words were spoken with a long hard look at Boromir.

The phrasing does seem archaic, even poetical, but as with the thee and thou discussion, Aragorn does seem to switch between 'casual' and 'heroic' speech patterns depending on who he's chatting with. The Council is necessarily formal, heroic and certainly archaic, or at least most of its members were!

Er, yeah Morth, was thinking that Alatar had been hijacked by spammers until I read the post .

[Narnangol]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Frodo tells Strider already in Bree:" You began to talk to me like the Bree folk, but your voice has changed ." And really, even then Aragorn uses "cannot" instead of "can't", "do not" instead of "don't", "let us" instead of "let's", "I will" instead of "I'll" "I think not" instead of "I don't think so" "have I not?" instead of "haven't I?" (In fact, only Hobbits and Bree-folk speak like that)

To me all this makes his speech sound more noble and ancient, and not commonplace.

Originally Posted by Rumil

...Aragorn does seem to switch between 'casual' and 'heroic' speech patterns depending on who he's chatting with.

I saw this, too; Aragorn's change in manner of speech is at times very noticeable, to Frodo as well as the readers, apparently. (However, his 'default' style - sans contractions, with more inversions etc - does seem to be so that he sounds less commonplace. Especially when he is Strider and his true identity as yet unrevealed, it hints at his nobility.) Tolkien explains this in Appendix F:

It will be noticed that Hobbits such as Frodo, and other persons such as Gandalf and Aragorn, do not always use the same style. This is intentional[...]It was in any case natural for much-travelled folk to speak more or less in the manner of those among whom they found themselves, especially in the case of men who, like Aragorn, were often at pains to conceal their origin and their business.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

n letter #171 that Squatter quoted Tolkien gives an example of what Theoden said and of how it would sound in colloquial English. But I'd have to look that up.

Fortunately I already posted it a long time ago: Tolkien on archaism in The King of the Golden Hall

[Rikae]

It's strange: it sounds best with the "a" to me. When I read it out loud, the "and" and "hard" are stressed, and unstressed "a" between creates a pleasing flow, whereas "and hard" just leaves an awkward pause.

With caps for stress:
i have HAD a LONG life AND a HARD

When read as "I've", it's all iambic here.

[alatar]

Again, thanks for all of the enlightening posts, as this tin ear has learned a lot about how this notorious phrase can sound.

But what if, and yes, this is a big if ... but what if the phrase is just a typographical error? What if a word were misplaced, mistaken or left behind entirely?

- I have had a hard **** and a long life.

- I have had a hard life and a long one.

- etc

Just saying.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

But what if, and yes, this is a big if ... but what if the phrase is just a typographical error? What if a word were misplaced, mistaken or left behind entirely?

- I have had a hard **** and a long life.

- I have had a hard life and a long one.

- etc

That's food for thought, but the wording looks to be intentional.

In HOME 2 the so-called "Fourth version" of the events at the Council reads:

'Yes, it is true,' [Aragorn] said, turning to Boromir with a smile. 'I do not look the part, maybe: I have had a hard life and a long, and the leagues that lie between here and Ond would go for little in the count of my wanderings.'

Apparently the Professor just liked the way that looked and sounded, for whatever reason.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Don't they teach you the proper use of perfect and imperfect in school nowadays?

No, actually. That is probably why a lot of second-language speakers know the grammar of that language better than native speakers.

It's just that that phrase sounds a bit like "I have had... [and now I have...]"

Or maybe, like you said, it's me mixing up my haves and hads.

[Morthoron]

"I have had a hard life and a long...." is indeed an archaic bit of English prosaic poesy, but it is ungainly. I'm too lazy to pull out Dickens, but I think he would have phrased it "I've had a hard life and long..." omitting the "a", which seems to be the awkard aspect of the clause.

[Kath]

To me it flows well. What I feel is missing is a comma.

"I have had a hard life, and a long."

The natural pause in the sentence is then clearly indicated to match the way I pause automatically when reading it.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

An unwashed (by which presumably is meant 'common') person would in Aragorn's place probably say 'My life's been long and hard'. The sentence could be phrased 'I have had a hard life and a long one', or 'A hard life and a long have I led'. None of these is incorrect, and neither is Tolkien's version. The second indirect object is indicated by the fact that here a second occurrence of 'life' has been omitted in a standard inverted elliptical construction. Tolkien typically uses inversion to emphasise the key words in his sentences; an old technique often used in Old English. This often results in sentences that are not phrased quite as they would be by a modern native speaker. Probably the best explanation for Tolkien's preference for this sort of writing is his own.

Originally Posted by JRRT

Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that.

Letters #171

That being said, I like the fall of that sentence. For me it stands out not at all in a chapter crammed with more or less watered archaism, and it is reasonably typical of Aragorn's long speech about the part played by the Rangers in defending the North. It suits Aragorn perfectly, since during the the course of LR he uses both mildly archaic and entirely colloquial language. Tom Shippey sees his use of the former in The Council of Elrond as a response to Boromir; a tacit challenge to his grandiloquence. However, his easy use of both everyday and archaic language helps to underline the fact that Aragorn is both a legendary king in waiting and a ragged wanderer, at home in a pub in Bree just as much as in Elrond's council chamber. The relative formality and archaism of the various characters in this chapter would bear close scrutiny, but I lack the time for that this evening.

[alatar]

Thanks for all of the replies.

This unwashed reader (barely even schooled in American English) still finds the phrase grating, but now better understand that it may be Old English, as well as Tolkien's way of showing that Aragorn is a learned man from a noble family.

By the by, couldn't resist using the title - rarely can you so easily make a book quote so...ahhh...outstanding.

[Elmo]

I reckon "I've had a hard life, and long" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by alatar

This unwashed reader (barely even schooled in American English) still finds the phrase grating, but now better understand that it may be Old English, as well as Tolkien's way of showing that Aragorn is a learned man from a noble family.

Yeah, this unwashed snagged that on my first reading in 1976, and my brain automatically inserts 'one' at the end to have it make sense to me. Always thought it was an editing miss myself.