The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Findegil]

RB-DF-11: Very good catch. Agreed.

RB-DF-12; -13: Your editing is good. Agreed.

RB-DF-14: This was discussed under the labels NA-EX-05 and NA-TI-02b in the thread Narn I Chîn Húrin1: Túrins Fostering on page 1. My Posting #33 gives a good overview.
I agree that the story now as our texts stand are told twice in diffrent words. I agree and tried to do as fare as possible that we should use only the text of QS to avoid redundant wording. If it is undisiered all together to have the story told twice I would rather skip here the passage dealing with Húrin and Hour alltogether, and not cut anything out of our Narn version. But if we do so it would be hard to find a reason for Turgon being mentioned here at all. I would rather let the story stand here told very briefly and then in an more ampel scale in the Narn.

§172: I have to read both accounts again before further comments, but I think my interpretation was based on the view that there is diffrence between Hithlum and Mithrim. I will come back to this point.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello fellows,

as for the change Haladin for Halethrim, I had seen it but, what can we do with the previous occurrences of Haladin in the Chapter 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand, f.e. named by Bëor, even when Haleth had not born.
Perhaps it is a change not developed by the professor, or you think its an internal change?

Greetings.

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, gondowe!

You make a good point that without 'Haladin' we have no general word to refer to the second kindred of the Edain prior to the chieftanship of Haleth. But really we are only dealing with two or three mentions of them before Haleth appears, and I think it would be a shame to let that prevent us from taking up the change. At worst, I expect we could refer to the people 'who later were called the Halethrim', or something along those lines.

RB-DF-14: I agree completely that the version in the Narn should remain there, regardless of what we do here.

But I'm still torn as to what to do here. I have to say, I'm somewhat inclined to reduce the whole episode here to a brief mention and say 'as is after told'. This would be much as in QS, the destruction of Barahir's band is mentioned in a single sentence in the present chapter and then the full story is told in 'Of Beren and Luthien'. It seems rather undesirable to me to tell the same story twice, even if it is in different words. But, like I said, I need to give it a little bit more thought.

[Aiwendil]

Comments for the remainder of the chapter:

RB-SM-01: It seems to me that by adding this sentence from GA, we end up saying twice that the swarthy men came into Beleriand. I do see that the GA passage gives a more detailed picture of their movements and also adds the detail that the Dwarves had told Maedhros of their approach, but I think these could be worked in without the redundancy:

§150 . . . And it is said that at this time the Swarthy Men came first {into Beleriand;} <GAout of Eriador, and passing north about the Eryd Luin entered into Lothlann. Their coming was not wholly unlookedfor, since the Dwarves had warned {Maidros}[Maeðros] that hosts of Men out of the further East were journeying towards Beleriand.> [A]nd some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call; but not all . . .

RB-SM-05: There is another slight redundancy here in that QS has already stated that some of the Swarthy Men were already in league with Morgoth. But here it is not so easy to simply take the extra details from GA and add them to the passage in QS, since the GA statement refers to the folk of Bor and Ulfang, who are not introduced in QS until the following paragraph. I suppose the redundancy is slight enough that we might let it stand. Another solution might be to follow GA version I and put the whole statement in the footnote instead of just the second half of it as in version II.

RB-SM-06: In QS, the statement that the people of Haleth 'dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion' explains their not being involved in the northern war initially. With our change here, it instead (purportedly) explains why they had little contact with the Easterlings. The thing is, it really doesn't explain that at all, since Brethil is not really any further south than the area in eastern Beleriand where the Easterlings settled. We could probably get away with just changing 'southward' to 'westward'. Also, I think that since this now forms the end of the section instead of leading into the account of the battle in Brethil, we should combine it with the previous sentence:

There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed{.}[;] {Yet}and RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> {remained still free; for they had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the {southward}[eastward] in the woods by Sirion.

[Findegil]

At long last I have found the time answer:

§172: I agree that "winning the passes" is the same as "coming into Hithlum" and that therefore it is clear that after "the Orcs won many passes" the "Battle was joined at the very plains of Hithlum", but this redundance is already there in the text of the QS. In QS it is said, that "The Orcs won
many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim".What gives me pause is the "even" in this sentence. For me at least it suggests a further advance. This also agrees to my interpretation of the geography in which the plains of Hithlum reach fare to the north while Mithrim is the area directly around the lake.
But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.

RB-SM-01: Agreed. Very elegant solution.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

RB-SM-06: I see your point. And I think you meant {southward}[westward]. But I am not absoulutley happy with that solution.
For one the Easterlings settled in Lothlan and in the Lands south of Maedrons March. Both seemd to be more northern teretories. But I agree that thier is some doubt about it since Ulfang follwed Caranthir, how dwelt upon Amon Ered fare in the south.
For two Hithlum is even further west then Brethil and for the folk of Hador some other reason is mentioned.
The reason that is hinted at by the sentence is that the Halethrim were not in strong alliance with an elvish lord activley searching communication with the Feanorians. The Halethrim had contact to Thingol and Fealgund. Both not very freindly with Maedron of Caranthir. Thus their was no meeting to be expacted between elvish lords of southern Beleriand (Thingol and Felagund) with the Feanorians in which manish followers (Halethrim and Easterlings) would meet as well.
Don't ask me how we should put that into our text. I have to think about that further.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

RB-SM-06: Maybe we should not do all the thinking for our readers and let them make up their mind by themself. What about this:

§152 There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed. Yet RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> remained still free; for they{ had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion.

As reason why the Dúnedain and the Easterlings did not met the passage gives 'For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand;' the rest is then a short resumee of the state of affairs of the Dúnedain. Implicit it is clear that all remaining Dúnedain 'dwelt to the westward' which is what is needed for not meeting with the Easterlings.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

I think you're right - though I had failed to notice it before, GA does seem to say that besides the forces attacking Barad Eithel from the east, there was another army that 'came down from the north' and fought with Fingon in Hithlum. So we're agreed that we'll use GA for this section.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.

It may actually be slightly trickier to deal with than that - Tolkien calls the third house the 'folk of Marach' when they first enter Beleriand, but (unless I'm mistaken) we don't have the name of any leaders of the Halethrim before the Orc-raid. But still, I think this is a very minor problem and one we can deal with when we come to it.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

Agreed.

RB-SM-06: I suppose that will do.

Are there any outstanding points that I've missed? If not, I think we're done with 'The Ruin of Beleriand'!