The Building of Barad-dûr

[Inziladun]

Hm. Well, I see a couple of possibilities.

1. There were actually two towers named Barad-dûr: one raised long before the forging of the Rings of Power by Sauron as a base of operations in Mordor. If that is considered, it can be surmised that Sauron decided to "improve" the Tower by razing the original structure and rebuilding it using the power of the One.

2. Elrond et al were merely guessing about Sauron using the One to build the Tower, and in the event mistaken.

Of the Rings of Power states that after Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance:

The Dark Tower was levelled to the ground, yet its foundations remained, and it was not forgotten.

No mention there of why the foundations were still there, nor indeed why the Tower fell. Maybe the Alliance physically brought down the Tower, but didn't see the need to break and remove the stone foundations. After all, they believed Sauron was gone forever. How could they have known the foundations were unbreakable unless they tried to remove them? Would they have bothered to try, and seen it was impossible, and divined that the power of the One was the reason? Somehow, I doubt it.

[Formendacil]

Along the lines of Inziladun's first proposition, is it possible that we can distinguish between a literal Barad-dûr tower and a more general Barad-dûr ediface/city? I'm think of how Minas Anor/Tirith is both the seven-tiered city and yet is topped by the literal Tower of Ecthelion (who only ruled it as Steward something like 2500 years after Isildur and Anárion founded the city. (As far as that goes, though, I think we have to assume that there was a tower in Minas Anor from close to the beginning for it to have been named "tower" in the first place...)

By way of analogy, it's possible that Sauron founded the "city/castle/whatnot" of Barad-dûr ca. 1000 S.A. but that he didn't actually raise the eponymous tower until after he'd forged the One Ring. After all, since Mordor served as his base of operations for a number of centuries, it seems plausible that he would have had some permanent residence there. It's possible that the "Barad-dûr complex" was older than the tower which gave it it's name--and it's also possible that it wasn't until after Sauron "came out" as the Dark Lord that they realised he had a base in Mordor--and thus there would have been no reason to have a name for it in Elvish.

On the note of Elvish--and only tangentially related to the topic of Barad-dûr--does anyone have sufficient skills in Sindarian to distinguish between the meaning or nuances of "Minas" and "Barad?" I think of them as interchangeable, but I can't imagine Tolkien using two words for "tower" without having a distinction betwixt them.

[Galin]

Barad would appear to imply a 'great towering building (fort, city, castle) tower', and also according to Tolkien, the root seems to express great height combined with strength, size, majesty. One of the Quenya words given for comparison is Tarminas. This is according to Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages, entry Elbereth.

However I couldn't find something post-Lord of the Rings for minas in this source (I thought there was something here!), so going back in external time to Etymologies (where we are dealing with N. meaning Noldorin not Sindarin, among other early differences)...

MINI -- stand alone, (...) Q. mindo isolated tower N. min 'one, single, distinct unique' minnas 'tower'

Again I wish I could remember a later reference, but with this (at least) I think we can see a semantic distinction.

[Aiwendil]

Interesting ideas - the possibility that there were two Barad-durs, or a greater Barad-dur and Barad-dur proper, as it were, hadn't occurred to me. While I must say that I think it very unlikely that Tolkien had such an idea in mind when he wrote the Tale of Years, it is rather a nice harmonization of the sources.

Another possible explanation may be offered by a reference to Barad-dur found in 'Of Dwarves and Men' that I came across just now. Here Tolkien is discussing the Druedain and says parenthetically:

Originally Posted by Of Dwarves and Men

The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring.

Although a discussion of the relation between Barad-dur and the Ring is clearly not what Tolkien is focused on here, this statement does seem to present a different version of that relationship from what Elrond says. Namely, it suggests that Sauron transferred some of his own power into the foundations of Barad-dur and, quite separately, also transferred some of his own power into the Ring. If this is the case, then maybe the link between Barad-dur and the Ring comes about not because the Ring was used in the making of Barad-dur, but because it was invested with the same power that was invested in Barad-dur. Instead of Sauron -> Ring -> Barad-dur we have Sauron -> Barad-dur and Sauron -> Ring. We might then take Elrond's statement either as an error on his part or as merely an imprecise way of describing the situation.

Of course, either of those explanations still leaves the 'Akallabeth' statement, which seems to place the fortification of Mordor between 1731 and 1869, in contradiction with the Tale of Years, which has it taking place from 1000 to 1600.

[Alfirin]

If Sauron did indeed put some of his power into the foundations of Barad-dur, thay may explain why Elrond and co. did not take the foundations down; quite possibly they couldn't. With some of Sauron's power in them, it may be that, as long as Sauron "lived", the foundations were indescructable.
Another point may be the foundations may have not have been "built" in the sense we are thinking. Going back further, to Melkor's Angbad and Utumno, I have always thought that they might not have been "built" in the sense we think; but putting stone upon stone. Given Melkor's power he may have actually casued both structures to form from the living rock, or have had some of his fire Maiar (like the Balrogs and Dragons, when they were not off battling) melt all of the stones together, so the castle became one solid mass. If he could make volcanos, this could be witin his power. Doing something of this magnitude to the whole of Barad Dur would likely be beyond Saurons strength, but doing it to the foundations might not have been, especially for a powered up early Sauron. If he did, then the foundations would be hard to break.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another point may be the foundations may have not have been "built" in the sense we are thinking. Going back further, to Melkor's Angbad and Utumno, I have always thought that they might not have been "built" in the sense we think; but putting stone upon stone. Given Melkor's power he may have actually casued both structures to form from the living rock, or have had some of his fire Maiar (like the Balrogs and Dragons, when they were not off battling) melt all of the stones together, so the castle became one solid mass.

I don't think Utumno and and Angband were comparable to the Barad-dûr. The former were subterranean dungeons, not above-ground fortresses. Angband had near it the "towers" of Thangorodrim, true. However, I highly doubt Sauron would have had a similar power of the earth itself, either with the Ring or without it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Although a discussion of the relation between Barad-dur and the Ring is clearly not what Tolkien is focused on here, this statement does seem to present a different version of that relationship from what Elrond says. Namely, it suggests that Sauron transferred some of his own power into the foundations of Barad-dur and, quite separately, also transferred some of his own power into the Ring. If this is the case, then maybe the link between Barad-dur and the Ring comes about not because the Ring was used in the making of Barad-dur, but because it was invested with the same power that was invested in Barad-dur. Instead of Sauron -> Ring -> Barad-dur we have Sauron -> Barad-dur and Sauron -> Ring. We might then take Elrond's statement either as an error on his part or as merely an imprecise way of describing the situation.

Perhaps an imprecise description from Elrond. But he does say "made with the ring" not "made by."

Made by would definitely point to Sauron made the Ring then used it to build the foundations. Then as you ask in this thread, we've got a problem with inconsistency.

Made with, I think there is a different interpretation possible. It would suggest the somehow the Sauron-Barad Dur and Sauron-Ring connection leads to Barad-dur's foundations being enhanced. Either it's an effect from the Ring being made or Sauron directly strengthens the foundations, tying its strength to the Ring.

I'd say this is even more likely, since Sauron's own power was enhanced by creating the Ring:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.~Letter #131

[Morthoron]

I rather think the Ring fortified the existing structure, but it might be that Sauron could also tap into the existing and eternal corruption of the earth (see Morgoth's Ring) even prior to the Ring being forged. The Ring merely reinforced the corruption of Morgoth (and Sauron, of any being in Arda, would certainly understand his master's concepts, having completed Angband while Morgoth was captive of the Valar).

If you look at another existing structure, Minas Morgul, built by Gondor, it was already a stout fortification. But once inhabited by the WitchKing (who evidently channeled Sauron's power), it became such a place of dread that the evil power which enveloped it superseded the mere stone of the structure. An army would quail in fear simply coming near to it. How then could an army attempt to storm it?

In another fortification, Dol Guldur, Galadriel laid bare the pits and destroyed its foundations. She did this AFTER the One Ring was destroyed. Obviously, there was enough residual evil exuding from the place to warrant its complete destruction before the land could become wholesome again.