The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-30-2011, 08:15 AM   #1
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
At this later date, I can't remember exactly when I first read UT. I don't think it could have been before the mid 90's, though, when my Tolkien interest went through a renaissance that ultimately led me here to the Downs.

I'm quite fond of this first story. To me, Tuor really is the anti-Túrin; humble and accepting of advice, yet valiant when put to it. He hears the call of Ulmo and goes to the Sea, where he receives a task he had not looked for. Like Frodo much later, he accepts the errand on faith, not knowing where it will lead him in the end, but realizing that such is his part to play. I admire that.

Also, the imagery here is superb. As has been mentioned, the visualization of the empty, yet enduring halls of Vinyamar is compelling. The sound of the waves, the sunlight streaming in, and the sense of wholesomeness mixed with intrigue: where had the Noldor there gone? Tuor would find out rather soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
I have always seen Voronwe as the analogue of Gwindor - Gwindor guides Turin to Nargothrond and Voronwe guides Tuor to Gondolin. That parallel goes deeper - if you recall, Finrod and Turgon both had dreams sent to them by Ulmo urging them to found hidden cities, and Nargothrond and Gondolin were the respective results. It's also worth noting that in the Book of Lost Tales, Voronwe was an escaped thrall from Angband just as was Gwindor ('Flinding' in the Lost Tales). Indeed, I've always kind of suspected that Tolkien changed Voronwe's background to avoid making the analogy too blatantly obvious.
Gwindor as a parallel to Voronwë works very well. I like Voronwë as is, better. As you say, with Gwindor we already have a picture of what happens to the prisoners of Angband. With Voronwë, we get the insight of an Elf trying against hope to return to the West, failing, and yet being saved to play his own part in a drama much greater than himself.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 09:31 AM   #2
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Also, the imagery here is superb. As has been mentioned, the visualization of the empty, yet enduring halls of Vinyamar is compelling. The sound of the waves, the sunlight streaming in, and the sense of wholesomeness mixed with intrigue: where had the Noldor there gone? Tuor would find out rather soon.
Speaking of imagery, not only in the physical landscape, but the imagery provided by the various types of birds stirs beautiful imagery. The great seagulls, the swans of the Teleri, and the Eagles circling, guarding the Sirion from Orcs. And I believe there is a great statue of Thorondor in Gondolin.

It reminded me of a statue I recently saw visiting Salem, MA outside a courthouse. Large golden eagle, wings spread, which made me wonder about symbolisms of eagles. Quite majestic, royal, the lions of the sky?
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 10:01 AM   #3
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
It's an interesting question you bring up, Aiwendil, regarding Christopher Tolkien's choice to place "Of Tuor" first in Unfinished Tales, over the Narn, and since this is a discussion of UT as a whole as much as UT's individual units, it's an interesting one to consider. Given Christopher Tolkien's rubric of putting the first three sections in chronological order, "Of Tuor" and the Narn are essentially interchangeable, because they cover a contemporary timeframe. True, the Narn starts a few years earlier, because Túrin is Tuor's elder, but it also brings the story a few years later--Tuor and Voronwë's chance encounter with Túrin leaves the entire final, and most finished, section of the Narn yet to come, starting with his return to Dor-Lómin.

Nonetheless, I don't think it was strict chronology that led Christopher Tolkien to place "Of Tuor" first. Aiwendil has already given an adequate account of why it might be a more hopeful first choice, and I'll merely add to that by saying it's a question of balance. If the Narn had gone first, it would have completely unbalanced UT as a whole. As the longest narrative in the book (and arguably the most complete, as shown by its ready transition to a little changed form in the stand-alone, commentary-free Children of Húrin), the Narn would have changed the book from Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth to The Narn i Hîn Húrin and Other Unfinished Tales.


Also, while we're reminiscing about when we first read UT, I'm trying to think when I did. I read both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings when I was 11 (or about 11... I'm not actually sure), and had my first attempt at the The Silmarillion shortly after, and was temporarily defeated... but not permanently defeated, because I think that after another reread or two of the LotR I read the Silm for a second time and then had the inertia to leap into UT. All these books were purloined from my dad's college-era bookshelves, and I vaguely remember that my post-Silm trepidation was much allayed by the references I could see to the more familiar world of Men and the Third Age, so I must have been no older than 12 or a very early thirteen, since I definitely read it a few times (if not several) before the movies came out a month or two before I turned 15. I'd tentatively date my first read, then, to 1998 sometime.

It's a fascinating study of my own chronology, even if it interests no one else.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 02:00 PM   #4
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
I'm enjoying the posts here! Question: Would you like another week to discuss this chapter, or are you ready to move on to the next one?
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 02:05 PM   #5
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
I'm enjoying the posts here! Question: Would you like another week to discuss this chapter, or are you ready to move on to the next one?
I'm of the mind that there's no reason this thread must cease once the next begins... but insofar as I have not yet reread (or skimmed) the Narn in preparation... well... holding off wouldn't hurt me.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 08:26 PM   #6
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Esty, I have no preference, but curious, were you planning on breaking up the sections of the Children of Hurin?
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 05:55 AM   #7
Guinevere
Banshee of Camelot
 
Guinevere's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
Guinevere is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I was wondering about that too. The Children of Hurin is much longer than an average chapter, and it will probably take me about a week to reread it.
__________________
Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat
our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!
Guinevere is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:54 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.