New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Does it make sense that a Dwarf ends up with a Silmaril as part of a burial reliquary? Taking the obvious tack of adding in storylines that were not in The Hobbit, wouldn't a Sindarin Elf like Thranduil (only identified as ElvenKing in TH) recognize and immediately demand the Arkenstone/Silmaril as a sacred Elvish gem stolen by the Dwarves from Menegroth after they murdered Thranduil's sovereign Lord, King Thingol? Wouldn't this, in fact, cause a second war between Elves and Dwarves?

Also, Gandalf (otherwise known elsewhere as Olorin the Maia) had spent the entire space of time prior to the 3rd Age in Valinor. Knowledgeable as he was of all things Elvish, he wouldn't immediately recognize a Silmaril and know its history and importance?

There are several reasons why Thranduil might not not have recognized a Silmaril. Thingol was very possessive of the Jewel and may not have allowed others to study it at great length. Thranduil and his father Oropher may not have dwelt in Menegroth aside from occasional visits. Thranduil might even have believed, as some here, that the lost Silmarils could not be recovered, and certainly wouldn't believe one might resurface in the east.

Orcrist, while certainly not of the same value as a Silmaril, was an ancient Elvish weapon from the fall of Gondolin, yet the Elvenking allowed it be buried with Thorin.

If Gandalf did recognize it as such and knew that by sharing that knowledge he would risk a new war between Elves and Dwarves over the Jewel, what motive would he have to reveal this knowledge?

Out of curiosity, Morthoron, PPC member?

[Galadriel55]

I add my welcome to those before me, Landroval. Enjoy the Downs!

Originally Posted by Landroval

Basically, the Silmarils as hallowed items burn those of evil spirit who touch them. Morgoth was able to wear them in a crown with no ill effect to the crown itself, but when he touched them his hands were burned black. Others have also been be burned by them such as the wolf Carcharoth and the Sons of Feanor. Others were not, such as King Thingol, who might be seen as just as arrogant and possessive as Thorin.

I think there are some problems with this assumption. The Silmarili burn flesh, that's true, but that does not mean that they give off heat such as would melt everything around them. To explain this, let me use an analogy - a wound burns, even though the substance that it's in (air, water, alcohol, medicine of some sort, etc) is not hot and not terribly corrosive. Moreover, Thingol wore the Silmaril on his chest when he spoke haughtily with the Dwarves. That was no good deed, but the Silmaril didn't burn through the Nauglamir.*

That also brings me to my next point. I wouldn't say that touching the Silmarils is denied only to evil spirits. I would change that to people a) with evil intentions, and/or b) who have no right to the Silmarili. Once again using the example of Thingol, he had nothing nice in mind when he was with the Dwarves, but he had a claim to the Silmaril, through Beren.



In support of this theory, is support it be called, I'll say this. When The Hobbit was written, JRRT was thinking of his First Age mythology. I believe TH was originally supposed to happen in Beleriand, and if you look at the geography it makes sense. JRRT couldn't publish The Silmarillion, so he published a book "about" The Silmarillion. TheArkenstone was probably modeled on a Silmaril - so it is the fourth of the kind, if you really want to think this way. (Maybe not a Silmaril, but something very similar, since we know that no one could replicate them) But still - I don't believe it's a Silmaril by their true definition; it's not one of Feanor's three.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Landroval

There are several reasons why Thranduil might not not have recognized a Silmaril. Thingol was very possessive of the Jewel and may not have allowed others to study it at great length. Thranduil and his father Oropher may not have dwelt in Menegroth aside from occasional visits. Thranduil might even have believed, as some here, that the lost Silmarils could not be recovered, and certainly wouldn't believe one might resurface in the east.

Again, this is conjecture which is not part of the story. For such a far-fetched theory as you present, there must be something more tangible than "might not", "may not", "may not" and "might". Besides, Dior, son of Beren and Luthien, wore the Silmaril openly in Doriath.

You completely ignore that the Silmaril would have to travel hundreds of miles in magma in the earth's mantle, beneath a massive mountain range with no purported volcanic activity, and then settle beneath Erebor sometime in the late 1st Age (again, no evident volcanic activity there either). It then becomes encased in rock (in a few thousand years), and then the dwarves cut facets into it:

The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves...

Which directly contradicts the description of the Silmarils:

Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.

Daft.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Orcrist, while certainly not of the same value as a Silmaril, was an ancient Elvish weapon from the fall of Gondolin, yet the Elvenking allowed it be buried with Thorin.

Orcrist was Noldorin, from Gondolin. It played no part in the history of the Sindar (and the Sindar had little liking for the Noldor, in any case). The Silmaril and the Dwarves murdering Thingol was a pivotal piece of history for the Sindar, and although there is not a direct reference to the episode of the sacking of Menegroth, there is a decided dislike between Elves and Dwarves in The Hobbit. If Thranduil had the slightest inkling that this jewel was the Silmaril, given his temperment, he would have acted on his belief. But as I emphasize, these are elements that are not part of Tolkien's writing of The Hobbit. The Arkenstone was not a Silmaril; if anything, it was a Similar.

Originally Posted by Landroval

If Gandalf did recognize it as such and knew that by sharing that knowledge he would risk a new war between Elves and Dwarves over the Jewel, what motive would he have to reveal this knowledge?

One would think that the retrieval of such an item would be important for when Olorin would return to Valinor. A Silmaril carries the light of the bliss of Valinor. A Silmaril blazes on the brow of Eärendel as he traverses the sky in Vingilótë. This is not something you leave with a dead, and in the grand scheme of things relatively unimportant, Dwarf.

This is particularly true since Mandos prophesied that the world will be changed and the Valar will recover the Silmarils. A Maia under the direction of Manwe would be derelict in his duty to leave such a sacred relic behind. It is the most important item of the entire 1st Age of Arda, and utterly integral in healing the world at the end of time, when Feanor surrenders the Silmarils to Yavanna and she breaks them open and revives the Two Trees. But, again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with The Hobbit. Which is the point, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Out of curiosity, Morthoron, PPC member?

I have no idea what you are referring to.

[Findegil]

Okay there no question that this is only and can only be a 'it could be possible' theory.
That means there is no hard evidence for it in the texts and some evidences against it which must circumvented with possible explainations to make the theory work.

But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

I've added a caveat to my entire rebuttal: "But, again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with The Hobbit. Which is the point, I suppose." Importing ideas from the Silmarillion to fit in the context of The Hobbit is fraught with peril. There are elements that Tolkien used from his larger mythos in the story, but these are consistent with his then unpublished work and clearly labeled (the Gondolin swords, for instance are indeed directly referred to in an applicable manner).

However, Tolkien does not call the gem of the Dwarves a "Silmaril", which is clearly of Elvish design and lineage, but he calls it the "Arkenstone" (Old English earcanstān, Old Norse jarknasteinn, for "precious stone"). The Arkenstone is derived from Old English poetry, and is in keeping with Tolkien's use of pre-existing ancient literature in the story's naming conventions (just as "Gandalf" and all the Dwarves' names are derived from the Voluspa). The Arkenstone shares a luminescence with the Silmaril, but unlike the Silmaril, it has been faceted and shaped, whereas the Silmaril cannot be marred or changed. The Silmaril is referred to as a "holy jewel" and obviously affects those who see and touch it (to the point where Eärendel is allowed admittance to the Blessed Realm merely by wearing one). The Arkenstone is pretty, but it has no profound effect on those who are near it. Bard holds it, Bilbo holds it, Thorin holds it. No big deal.

Originally Posted by Findegil

To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).

In a farcical debate, shouldn't one rebut nonsense with nonsense? But even being nonsensical, some logic should apply. Is it reasonable that Gandalf, a Maia who had seen the Two Trees and had been in Valinor since its inception would know what a Silmaril looked like? Is it logical that Thranduil, the ElvenKing, who patterned his underground manse to replicate Menegroth, would be aware of a Silmaril when he saw it? Or is it logical that a "Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor", when Beleriand broke off at a point west of the Ered Luin Mountains (Lindon), so that the Silmaril would have to traverse under the Ered Luin, the Misty Mountains, the Anduin River, and somehow settle under Erebor, then gain an encrustation of rock in a few thousand years? Would rock even adhere to a Silmaril, or would it remain inviolate and unchanged?

There is nonsense, and then there is Nonsense.

[blantyr]

While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.

Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.

I had to laugh out loud at this one. It was spontaneous and I couldn't stop it once the hilarity of the post struck me.....perhaps, Morothon, it wasn't a ski trip. Perhaps Balrogs enjoyed the equivalent (with lava flow) of our waterslides in Fun Parks. Perhaps they dropped the Silmaril from moving through too narrow a channel of lava flow on one of their 'fun rides'.

@Landrovel and the other ***awesomely brave*** posters who are tackling an unorthodox theory. I love youZ for it, and I'm going to - for the total sake of fun, take the 'side' in Debate with Landrovel's team.

Okay:

1. Lava flows in subterranean conduits, do indeed, transport items, for many, many kilometres.
2. When Maedhros hurled the Silmaril (the silly MAN woops ELF for all the kinslaying) he couldn't even touch his father's 'precious' Silmaril -- at all -- by end of FA.
3. Morgoth COULD touch it. Somehow, it seems, that Evil (c.f. evil) beings could bear the 'heat' of the touch of the Silmaril, if their Evil power was MAXED past, I dunno, 'exactly' what setting, but some 'thermostat' control seemed to apply.
4. Gothmog was pretty amped up, in terms of, ya know, Evil zshoo zshoo.
5. UNGOLIANT. hahahaha, DRANK all that fluid from the Trees and seemed to quite enjoy it.
6. Ergo, obviously, SPIDERS and possibly DRAGONS and BALROGS are all candidates for a 'Migrating Silmaril'....and I'll be cheeky, HYPOTHESIS.
7. I wonder what happens when, say, Balrogs, (between big battles) get BORED while their Dark Lord does this and that, and Dagor This and That readying. Perhaps, they found (was it Maedhros???Hahaha) Silmaril....thing....and said to each other (ya know lads, when I touch that darned thing, it hurts, and so, I peddle faster in our lava boat race).

Thus, in conclusion, perhaps a Balrog of lesser stature than Gothmog (e.g. the one in the Misty Mountains) used the Silmaril in a "Balrog Lava Race" and got into really big trouble, coz he dropped it, when he overshot, and popped up in Erebor, before smelling Dwaves in Khazad Dum.

And the more serious version - there are indeed, a number of ways a Silmaril can migrate through subterranean routes. And Master Tolkien was very good at giving us all Temporal Causality Loop headaches. That is, by the time he finished every darned one chapter at a time, poor Chris has a very big headache, trying to give dates, times, and annotations to emendations in the various headaches he must have had releasing post LotR works.

It's not -- entirely -- out of the question that the prof could have varied his story about the Silmarils, to say, allow for A SECOND one to be found, as the precursor to the Last Battle and Remaking of Arda. (that aweseome time when Teleperion and Laurelin are REKINDLED!)

AND Morothon, actually to use one of your own prior arguments (see the Bilbo thread), wait, I'll go get it and see for yourself.

AMEN

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

A Maia under the direction of Manwe would be derelict in his duty to leave such a sacred relic behind.

I don't think that follows.
From the published Sil, we have a Maia (Fionwe) permitting TWO Silmarils (that had actually been under his control) to be carried off when all he had to do to keep them was permit the armed murders who had stolen them to be slain rather than escape. Clearly, there are other things the Valar considered more important than recovery of the Silmarils.

Also, throughout the history of the West (and LOTR) great value is placed upon subordinating ones (even valid) desires to the wishes of rightful owners of relics.

Frodo notes, in the UT essay on Erebor, that not only was Gandalf not permitted to force Bilbo (or Frodo) to undertake the quest (or to take the ring himself) to destroy it - he was not even permitted to TRY.

The Arkenstone was already seen as the rightful property of the Dwarves (except for Bilbo's claim to take it as his "rightful" payment for coming on the quest). Even if it "were" a Silmaril (which I don't believe), Gandalf wouldn't have popped in and said "The Sil's are the rightful property of the Valar" (they never were in the first place) "so I'm going to take this from you and deliver it". Fate (Providence, if you wish) had already placed the Arkenstone where it was, and the Dwarves had unearthed and shaped it on their own. The Valar would have respected that.

But, again, if it is NOT a Sil (as I believe) then all arguments about reclaiming it for Valinor are moot.

Indeed, the prophecy is that, at the end, when the Sils are finally brought back together, they will be delivered to Feanor (coming finally from Mandos) and he, as the rightful owner, will break them so that Yavanna may, with their light, rekindle the Two Trees.

Until Feanor reaches that point of growth and humility (and maturity) it's not really all that important or crucial whether the Silmarils are kept safe (a) in the Sea-depths and Fires-of-the-earth; or (b) in a vault in Manwe's house in Valinor (or even, for that matter, on Thorin's breast in his grave in Erebor). No one can destroy them - No one without the right to hold can touch them without great pain/anguish - And if someone "did" find one and try to claim it, the results would like constitute their own punishment for the presumption).

[Galadriel55]

The Silmarili hold the fate of Arda. What significance would that give to your cases?



Personally, for me such an object belongs deep in the ground. In the ground, not on a dead Dwarve's chest under a mountail. Deep, deep, deep in the earth. It has to be there, and stay there, until Arda will be remade. From my POV, the Silmarils cannot remove themselves from their "proper" places - sky, sea, and earth/fire, the elements often associated with life and fate. You can't take one out of the ground. It's impossible. It won't let you do it. The Silmarilli aren't just dead stones - they have a will and power of their own. They would not allow themselves to be removed from their "homes".

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Findegil
But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

I feel that's a bit of an exaggeration, Findegil– you seem to be referring to this exchange:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One would think that the retrieval of such an item would be important for when Olorin would return to Valinor... etc.

In this particular case, Landroval had asked a question that could *only* be answered in hypothetical terms.

For the rest, I hardly think you can say that the "anti" camp have been raising "what if" arguments "as freely as they will". The problem, anyway, is not simply that the "for" people put forward "what if" cases, but that that's basically *all* they put forward. Further, many of these cases, just taken individually, have serious issues regards logic and plausibility. I don't see what's wrong with pointing this out.

Originally Posted by Findegil

P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.

I think it is illogical, yes. Please don't take that as a personal insult, Findegil. (I mean, if you are taking that way, that is.)

[Morthoron]

I will only add the lines Tolkien wrote after Maedhros tossed his Silmaril (and himself) into a chasm of fire, and Maglor threw his Silmaril into the sea:

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

There is a finality there that precludes long distance gem-migrating, Dwarf-delving, jewellers-faceting, dragon-hording, Hobbit-thieving, and funerary-betokening.

The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.

[Inziladun]

For me the matter is akin to saying Elvis Presley is alive and working at a Dairy Queen in New Jersey.

It's theoretically possible in a faint way, but it sure ain't very likely.

I agree that the clear inference in The Silmarillion is that the Silmarils would not be retrieved until the End.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.

Right. And as I noted earlier: 'John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...' but notes: 'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff


To which I responded: I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit.

Anyway I agree: this finality is fitting, this is what Tolkien landed on, but yet some seem to want it to be otherwise, as even Rateliff seems to want to connect these things.

Sea, Earth and Sky. Works for me

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The Arkenstone was already seen as the rightful property of the Dwarves (except for Bilbo's claim to take it as his "rightful" payment for coming on the quest). Even if it "were" a Silmaril (which I don't believe), Gandalf wouldn't have popped in and said "The Sil's are the rightful property of the Valar" (they never were in the first place) "so I'm going to take this from you and deliver it". Fate (Providence, if you wish) had already placed the Arkenstone where it was, and the Dwarves had unearthed and shaped it on their own. The Valar would have respected that.

While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.

But then if he tried to take it - if it was a Silmaril - imagine the consequences. I don't think this argument works against the Silmaril case, because, personally, I think Gandalf decided that a tomb and a secret were better for a Silmaril than:

-everyone knowing what it is
-even if not, suspicion from those involved in the story
-where would he then place it? Carry it around with him?
-how long before Sauron gets it, or at least news of it, and figures out it's a Silmaril?
-another war among Dwarves and Elves and Men
-No sense of finality to TH (no, this one's purely literary)


But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.

I don't hold it to mean much of anything, but do note two of the last options considered for handling the One Ring. One might take it on a ship, head out to sea, and cast it into the deeps, or one might toss it into a volcano.

[SofieVandepitte]

(This is actually my first post ever on this forum, oeh, exciting!)

During the past few days, I've been reading The Hobbit and immediately, the reference to the Silmarilis hit me, when reading Bilbo's description of the Arkenstone in Smaug's lair.

At first, I was inclined to believe it was indeed one of two lost Silmarils, but after thinking about it a while, it just doesn't fit with me. I don't truly like the idea of it.

First, I had this feeling the Silmarils should have a more, eh... grand role to play in the Ages after Melkor's defeat and the Fall of Thangorodrim. Don't get me wrong, I think Erebor's fate is important, but I don't think Tolkien would have let the Dwarves or Erebor find one of three most important jewels in the history of Arda. (Especially when you consider the rather nasty business between the Dwarves and Thingol.)

Plus, like some other people noted before, I don't think Tolkien would let the Silmaril be buried with Thorin. Again, this doesn't fit nicely to me.

But, alas, these first arguments are my pure opinion. I love to see Holy Jewels in Holy Places or deep in the fundaments of Arda, not in a Dwarf's resting place.

But to get more theoretical:

I always thought the Silmarils burned those who wanted to touch them with Bad Intentions (so, not bringing them back to Valinor).

Morgoth, the most powerful of the Ainur, suffered from immense pains whenever he tried to touch them. Of course, Thorin isn't as dark & evil as Morgoth, but he's a mere Dwarf, when Morgoth's a very powerful ex-Vala.

The sons of Fëanor, Maedhros & Maglor, suffered, too. They also couldn't touch the gems.

So, I ask you, dear discussion partners, how could Bilbo touch the Arkenstone, when considering it is a Silmaril? How could the Dwarves (eg. Thorin) of Erebor have touched it?

How was Smaug not hurt by it? I don't have my copy of the Sil right now, but I do remember Silmarils haven't got soothing effects on dragons.

The gems are hallowed by Varda, I don't think that sort of enchantment wears off after spending some time in Arda and then being spewn out by a vulcano. That sort of magic is permanent, just like Valar in themselves are. Just like the Two Trees should have been, if Melkor hadn't destroyed them.

And then, if we choose to ignore the rather tedious touching-part, wouldn't it be kind of... weird of Gandalf in the first place to just let the Arkenstone be buried next to Thorin, if he knew it to be one of the Holy Gems? I know the Valar can't do anything with two of the three Sils, they need all three of them, but still, I think it rather obvious that they would've wanted the gem to be secured in Aman, instead of a Dwarf's grave.

Especially because Sauron is establishing his Dark Power once more in Middle-Earth. Manwë is very much aware of that; he sent the Istari to protect the peoples of ME against Sauron in the first place.

And if Sauron suddenly realized that Erebor holds a Silmaril, one of the gems that lead to the downfall of his Master before him, that the Valar crave for, I think he would've done everything in his power to steal it from Thorin's grave. I don't even want to think about what Sauron would've been capable of, if he owned a Silmaril.

Gandalf knows this all, so, to me, it would be, bluntly put, idiotic to leave such a power in Erebor, no matter what.

Plus, there is another person present who knows what a Silmaril looks like: Thranduil. I doubt the elf-king of the Woodland Realm would appreciate the knowledge of one of the Sils being buried with a Dwarf, Thorin Oakenshield of all people.

So, next to gut-feeling, I don't agree with the notion of the Arkenstone being one of the mighty Silmarils.

(I hope I was a bit useful.)