New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Findegil]

Okay there no question that this is only and can only be a 'it could be possible' theory.
That means there is no hard evidence for it in the texts and some evidences against it which must circumvented with possible explainations to make the theory work.

But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

I've added a caveat to my entire rebuttal: "But, again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with The Hobbit. Which is the point, I suppose." Importing ideas from the Silmarillion to fit in the context of The Hobbit is fraught with peril. There are elements that Tolkien used from his larger mythos in the story, but these are consistent with his then unpublished work and clearly labeled (the Gondolin swords, for instance are indeed directly referred to in an applicable manner).

However, Tolkien does not call the gem of the Dwarves a "Silmaril", which is clearly of Elvish design and lineage, but he calls it the "Arkenstone" (Old English earcanstān, Old Norse jarknasteinn, for "precious stone"). The Arkenstone is derived from Old English poetry, and is in keeping with Tolkien's use of pre-existing ancient literature in the story's naming conventions (just as "Gandalf" and all the Dwarves' names are derived from the Voluspa). The Arkenstone shares a luminescence with the Silmaril, but unlike the Silmaril, it has been faceted and shaped, whereas the Silmaril cannot be marred or changed. The Silmaril is referred to as a "holy jewel" and obviously affects those who see and touch it (to the point where Eärendel is allowed admittance to the Blessed Realm merely by wearing one). The Arkenstone is pretty, but it has no profound effect on those who are near it. Bard holds it, Bilbo holds it, Thorin holds it. No big deal.

Originally Posted by Findegil

To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).

In a farcical debate, shouldn't one rebut nonsense with nonsense? But even being nonsensical, some logic should apply. Is it reasonable that Gandalf, a Maia who had seen the Two Trees and had been in Valinor since its inception would know what a Silmaril looked like? Is it logical that Thranduil, the ElvenKing, who patterned his underground manse to replicate Menegroth, would be aware of a Silmaril when he saw it? Or is it logical that a "Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor", when Beleriand broke off at a point west of the Ered Luin Mountains (Lindon), so that the Silmaril would have to traverse under the Ered Luin, the Misty Mountains, the Anduin River, and somehow settle under Erebor, then gain an encrustation of rock in a few thousand years? Would rock even adhere to a Silmaril, or would it remain inviolate and unchanged?

There is nonsense, and then there is Nonsense.

[blantyr]

While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.

Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.

I had to laugh out loud at this one. It was spontaneous and I couldn't stop it once the hilarity of the post struck me.....perhaps, Morothon, it wasn't a ski trip. Perhaps Balrogs enjoyed the equivalent (with lava flow) of our waterslides in Fun Parks. Perhaps they dropped the Silmaril from moving through too narrow a channel of lava flow on one of their 'fun rides'.

@Landrovel and the other ***awesomely brave*** posters who are tackling an unorthodox theory. I love youZ for it, and I'm going to - for the total sake of fun, take the 'side' in Debate with Landrovel's team.

Okay:

1. Lava flows in subterranean conduits, do indeed, transport items, for many, many kilometres.
2. When Maedhros hurled the Silmaril (the silly MAN woops ELF for all the kinslaying) he couldn't even touch his father's 'precious' Silmaril -- at all -- by end of FA.
3. Morgoth COULD touch it. Somehow, it seems, that Evil (c.f. evil) beings could bear the 'heat' of the touch of the Silmaril, if their Evil power was MAXED past, I dunno, 'exactly' what setting, but some 'thermostat' control seemed to apply.
4. Gothmog was pretty amped up, in terms of, ya know, Evil zshoo zshoo.
5. UNGOLIANT. hahahaha, DRANK all that fluid from the Trees and seemed to quite enjoy it.
6. Ergo, obviously, SPIDERS and possibly DRAGONS and BALROGS are all candidates for a 'Migrating Silmaril'....and I'll be cheeky, HYPOTHESIS.
7. I wonder what happens when, say, Balrogs, (between big battles) get BORED while their Dark Lord does this and that, and Dagor This and That readying. Perhaps, they found (was it Maedhros???Hahaha) Silmaril....thing....and said to each other (ya know lads, when I touch that darned thing, it hurts, and so, I peddle faster in our lava boat race).

Thus, in conclusion, perhaps a Balrog of lesser stature than Gothmog (e.g. the one in the Misty Mountains) used the Silmaril in a "Balrog Lava Race" and got into really big trouble, coz he dropped it, when he overshot, and popped up in Erebor, before smelling Dwaves in Khazad Dum.

And the more serious version - there are indeed, a number of ways a Silmaril can migrate through subterranean routes. And Master Tolkien was very good at giving us all Temporal Causality Loop headaches. That is, by the time he finished every darned one chapter at a time, poor Chris has a very big headache, trying to give dates, times, and annotations to emendations in the various headaches he must have had releasing post LotR works.

It's not -- entirely -- out of the question that the prof could have varied his story about the Silmarils, to say, allow for A SECOND one to be found, as the precursor to the Last Battle and Remaking of Arda. (that aweseome time when Teleperion and Laurelin are REKINDLED!)

AND Morothon, actually to use one of your own prior arguments (see the Bilbo thread), wait, I'll go get it and see for yourself.

AMEN

[Ivriniel]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/newrepl...reply&p=703077

Originally Posted by Morthoron

<--snip-->So what does Tolkien do after publishing The Hobbit? In writing a sequel, he magnifies the tale of Bilbo Baggins and the other characters. Gandalf goes from pitching pinecones to defeating a Balrog. Cozy Erebor becomes the decrepit but magnificent Khazad-dum. The dispossessed Bard with the black arrow becomes the dispossessed Aragorn with shards and a lineage that predates the Age. Oh, and a magic ring that grants invisibility becomes the One Ring, the manifestation of all evil, created by an eternal foe, Sauron, who was borrowed from the 1st Age, but now was hiding out as a necromancer in Dol Guldur but really has a far greater keep in Mordor.<--snip-->

Ergo, by your own contrivance, we have a --theoretical-- tool to 'amp up' the 'dumbed down' "Hobbit-ish--bedtime-story-to-serious-tale" variation.

Let's add in this:

adapting Morothon's concepts

And the Arkenstone is magnified into the glorious Holy Jewel - A Silmaril in the book entitled.

Of The Tale of The Years of The Silmarils' Migration

(Holy Ghost Publications, Heavenly Year - Temporal Causality Loop A-La Tolkien, channelled by Grace AMEN)