They Shall Not Pass!

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

Not quite a statement of fact. A prophecy, perhaps. Same thing, maybe.

Before many of the major confrontations in LOtR there is an exchange of prophecy. "You shall have neither the ring, nor me." "Fall back into the abyss that awaits you and your master." "This is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now, and curse in vain!" (A cock crows, indicating sunrise, beginning a new hour.) "No mortal man may hinder me." "But no mortal man am I!" "If you touch me ever again, you will be cast yourself into the crack of doom." (Dumbest prophecy of all of fantasy!)

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!" ARGHHHH! Absolutely the wrong thing to say in Middle Earth! The screenwriters absolutely and positively didn't get it.

Grumble...

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Very true.

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!"

Isn't it something like "come and claim him"? Even worse! ("shoty! He's mine!" )

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

"On their deathbed men will speak true", per Brandir. When you're life's at stake, you don't know if this is it for you - the last chance to speak. Not only truth, but also foresight/prophecy.

[Mithalwen]

Galadriel is right.

It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you".

He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here.

[Nogrod]

Good points Mith & Galadriel.

But also, I think no pasaran! means more or less the same: "you are not getting through" (no passing). And the idea in the trenches must have been more or less the same as well.

Slogans like this seem to serve many purposes from the moral boosting of your own side to the intimidation of the enemy (or to the stating of a "fact"). But surely Tolien was familiar with it.

Nice spotting Rune!

[Nogrod]

Heh, just realised, that "you cannot pass" or "no pasaran" do not only mean what they say, that "you cannot pass", but even more like "over my dead body"!

And that I think is the emotion or stance Gandalf and the WWI trencehrs share with the anti-Franco troops during the 30's... they were ready to die though, unlike many modern day protestors using the "no pasaran!" -slogan...

[Inziladun]

This is an interesting thread, one I'd never found in all this time.

A lot of good points are here already.

I do think it's notable that Gandalf says nearly the same thing to the Lord of the Nazgûl, when the latter is threatening to ride into Minas Tirith.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf.

In both instances Gandalf seeks to bar a foe from getting by him, and uses similar verbiage.

I don't think there was any connection between Gandalf's words and generic partisan-speak, at least not in Tolkien's mind.

[Nogrod]

Yelling out aloud that the foe is not to pass serves multiple purposes, I think.

You can think of it as trying to intimidate the enemy.

You can think of it as stating your determination that you will rather die than let them pass.

You can think of it as a call to rally your troops around you.

And in all cases you can also see it as an incantation - in the supernatural sense, or just as giving a boost of morale to your troops, sharing the shared mission, or trying to weaken the opposition with a threat.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And in all cases you can also see it as an incantation - in the supernatural sense, or just as giving a boost of morale to your troops, sharing the shared mission, or trying to weaken the opposition with a threat.

Yes, ultimately it is Word of Command. It's not just Gandalf saying "Oi! Get lost!" It's Gandalf saying something very powerful. He's isn't just laying down the law to the Balrog, he is also making it so just by saying it and that's exactly how No Pasaran! and On ne passe pas! were used. There's no doubt that someone caught in a real world siege/fighting a terrible enemy and Gandalf would have the same determination.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think there was any connection between Gandalf's words and generic partisan-speak, at least not in Tolkien's mind.

He would have known the phrase. It appears it was incredibly well known in the 1930s to the extent that he wouldn't have been able not to know it unless he lived in a cave - we know he was a voracious newspaper reader and events such as the Battle of Madrid were widely reported on in the British press. And I think it fits very well that someone who wrote about the ills of totalitarianism in Middle-earth chose to use that phrase. Tolkien even chooses to have Gandalf say it four times, and such phrases would be (and are) repeated in this way:

'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.
There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
'You cannot pass!' he said.

[Lalwendë]

Makes no difference what the nuances of English make it. And I should know

It's still No Pasaran! or on ne passe pas!.

A very famous and powerful command to a force of evil that it is going no further.