They Shall Not Pass!

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I must admit I had never thought of it as other than the most appropriate bit of English for the situation but then History isn't my strongest suit. I am failing to think of an alternative that Gandalf would use.

I am sorry Mith but I instantly got the view of Gandalf as Night Club Doorman saying 'You can't come in, you've got no pass......besides, you're wearing false wings'.

[Mithalwen]

Well that's the thing isn't it. I can't help thinking that it is too common a word to read too much significance into it...start subbing in alternatives and it does get bouncery or otherwise un-Gandalfy. What else is he going to say? "Over my dead body!"? ! "You won't get by me!"....

I can't help thinking that with Tolkien's feelings on allegory that he might have excised it had he consciously noticed the connection unless it was unavoidable that any alternative seemed "wrong" . As with the perceived religious reference I don't think it has anything to do with the capacity for comprehension of the reader but everything to do with the prior knowledge of the reader. You cannot recognise something you have never encountered before. People with no knowledge of theology or mythology won't pick up those connections, historical ignoramuses won't make this one.

Just as a side note the French version reminded me that words with the same origins don't always have exactly the same meanings in different languages and "passer" in French can be a "faux ami" - at least as far as exams are concerned!

[Morthoron]

I don't believe Gandalf would utter anything other than "You shall not pass!" It is formal, and it is almost biblical in intonation (THOU SHALT NOT!).

From a different angle, he is speaking to a fellow Maia, which is rather amusing: why would he be speaking in Westron?

[Mithalwen]

For the same reason Elfhelm swore in Westron when he tripped over Merry at the start of "The Ride of the Rohirrim" (unless Merry had quickly picked up enough colloquial Rohirric to understand '"dashed" tree roots...'and 'who left this blessed bag here are they trying to kill me?")...?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

For the same reason Elfhelm swore in Westron when he tripped over Merry at the start of "The Ride of the Rohirrim" (unless Merry had quickly picked up enough colloquial Rohirric to understand '"dashed" tree roots...'and 'who left this blessed bag here are they trying to kill me?")...?

No, I think it's a bit more egregious than that, Mith. Consider, Gandalf has of course been out and about among mortals for centuries, and can speak several languages fluently (including Warg ); however, to whom has the Balrog ever spoken to in the last several centuries, let alone speaking in a mannish language that was more than likely not in vogue when he went incommunicado at the end of the 1st Age? I suppose the Moria Orcs may have spoken Westron, but did the Balrog have a something akin to an Orkish Berlitz course, and did he even speak to the Orcs at all?

[Galadriel55]

It's not the language that matters, it's the meaning conveyed. And when Gandalf speaks, it is conveyed regardless of what language the listener speaks.

Think of it this way - hobbits understand Elvish songs even though they don't know Elvish. Elvish is a special language, but Gandalf is a special person.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't believe Gandalf would utter anything other than "You shall not pass!" It is formal, and it is almost biblical in intonation (THOU SHALT NOT!).

Would the inconvenient fact that what he actually said was "You cannot pass" get in the way of this belief?

You do have a point about the oddity of speaking Westron to the Balrog. But for some reason I have the feeling that a creature like the Balrog would have understood Gandalf's words, no matter what language he used.